Dive into the creative labyrinth with Todd Gross, an artist who has played it all - music, writing, and theatre. From NYC's indie scene to riveting plays and transformative literature, his journey is an inspiration for every creative soul.
Guest: Todd Gross, Author of LOY
On Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/ThemWIthinUs
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
In the latest thrilling episode of Audio Signals Podcast, your host Marco Ciappelli takes listeners on an awe-inspiring journey outside the confines of technology and society. This episode's spotlight shines on the multifaceted and eclectic artist Todd Gross, who is an embodiment of the interplay between music, literature, and theatre. Prepare yourself for a unique exploration of art, self-expression, and the pursuit of creative dreams, as Todd recounts his gripping tale.
Venturing back in time, we revisit the electric atmosphere of New York City in the heyday of indie bands, where Todd's artistic journey began. Picture the exhilarating hustle of setting up for gigs at the infamous CBGBs in the wee hours of the morning, striving to leave an impact and draw a crowd. This evocative recollection paints a vivid picture of an artist's pursuit and the passion that fuels it.
As the conversation progresses, we traverse Todd's creative evolution, witnessing his transition from the world of music to the realm of writing and theater. He opens up about his struggles and triumphs, from the exhilarating near-success of his first novel to the heartbreaking loss of his second. The discussion delves into the magic of theater and how it offers an interactive and rewarding creative process, with Todd's acclaimed play 'Them Within Us' serving as a highlight of his illustrious journey.
Despite the inevitable challenges and disappointments that often accompany a creative path, Todd's spirit remained unbroken. When traditional human dramas failed to captivate producers, he harnessed his love for sci-fi and charted a new course. This led to the creation of 'Them Within Us,' a romantic comedy with a sci-fi twist that dared to ask profound questions about keeping love alive and vital.
Beyond his work in theatre, Todd also guides us through his evolution as a writer, culminating in the creation of 'Loy in the Forest of the Mind,' a book that mirrors his personal journey of self-discovery and spiritual growth. His narrative weaves together esoteric underpinnings, visceral experiences, and thought-provoking premises in a rich tapestry of human potential and consciousness.
From band gigs at the break of dawn to captivating plays and introspective literature, Todd Gross' journey in the arts is a testament to the power of perseverance, passion, and the exploration of self. It offers listeners a profound reflection on the transformative impact of art, both on its creators and its audience.
Join Marco Ciappelli on this captivating journey through the labyrinth of art and self-discovery, one that will inevitably provoke thought, inspire conversation, and perhaps even spark your own creative flame. Share this unforgettable conversation, subscribe to the Audio Signals Podcast, and stay tuned for more extraordinary stories beyond the realm of the expected.
About the Book
The world is destroyed.
Stripped of all modern technology, a small group of people survive and evolve. The Rehloy are born blind and don't gain sight until they reach puberty. Learning of the world first through their other senses, creates such a high level of awareness in them that they border on the mystical.
For a thousand years they have lived in isolation, developing a special relationship with nature. Theirs is a "spiritual" life, ethereal, in some ways divine. But the outside world is intruding. The trees have begun to whisper of change....
On a distant shore, men whose technology is akin to the ancient Romans, have landed. Bent on conquest, they cut down trees, carve out roads, and begin to build a city.
And so, the struggle between a shamanic-like culture and an industrial one begins.
Loy is the story of a shaman, who must leave his homeland to discover the truth, and in so doing becomes its instrument.
It is about a mother who sacrifices her freedom and sanity in order to save her unborn child. It is about a child born with excruciating sensitivities, whose pain eventually becomes a source of great strength.
It is about monsters and madness, paradise found and lost. It is about the search for inner truth and a journey into the nature of mind and spirit.
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Resources
LOY: In the forests of the mind (Book): https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/loy-todd-david-gross/1143247063
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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voiceover00:15
Welcome to the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society. Welcome to ITSPmagazine podcast radio. You're about to listen to a new episode of audio signals get ready to take a journey into the unknown, the unknown and everything in between. record that no specific point in time nor space ITSPmagazine Is co founders Marco Ciappelli. And Shawn Martin followed their passion and curiosity as they venture away from the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society to discover new stories worth being told. Knowledge is power. Now more than ever
Marco Ciappelli01:04
All right, recording started. Now their audio signal Marco Ciappelli. Usually or sometimes, me and Shan Shan is the co founder ITSPmagazine good knee. And this is a channel where we usually step away from technology, cybersecurity and society. But you also sometimes go back into that, how can you not talk about technology, or society these days cybersecurity, we stay away from it. Today we're talking about a book. And it's a book that it's definitely not about technology. Although I don't know, I may be wrong about that. We'll ask the author about that, which is here with us. His name is Todd grace. Welcome to the show, Todd.
Todd gross01:54
Thank you. Good to be here.
Marco Ciappelli01:56
Yeah, absolutely. I think you have an interesting artistic background that then bleeded into writing, but it's still come from a different kind of art. And so I'm not good at reading bios. So I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself to our audience. And then we'll we'll talk about the book or anything that comes in our mind. It's freestyle.
Todd gross02:20
Sure, well, I've been in the arts forever. I started in bands, and performing and doing all those sorts of things. In New York City at a time where indie bands were, you know, well, you were in vogue in the sense that, as I put in my bio, you get a gig at like, CBGBs, or one of the downtown clubs, but they want to test you first to see if you could draw a crowd. So you would get 230 in the morning, on a Tuesday, to come there and perform. And so what that meant was, you know, you had to get all your songs together, you had to go down at 630 in the evening for a soundtrack. So you unload all your equipment, your setup all your equipment, then you have to break down your equipment and put it to the side because they have five bands. And then you know, come home, go home, eat, try to nap sleep gift, get yourself going, coming around 12, one o'clock, go on at 230 for 45 minutes, then you gotta break down all the equipment, put them in the truck, bring him back to this, this is you see the sunrise at times, and they have to go to work. So it was
Marco Ciappelli03:24
because that was in the first job, right?
Todd gross03:27
I mean, that was that's pursuing art for art, or whatever. So we came close to making it sort of, okay. You not a certain point, you're standing there at two o'clock in the morning playing and going on. It's just how I want to live the rest of my life here. So I was always writing I was always writing, okay. I've written two novels before. The first one actually, Alfred North, almost bought. And then the second one, when I was moving inadvertently, I put it in garbage bags, because it was so many pages. And they threw it out. So this is before computers. So oh, God, I had no backup, no backup. So that propelled me. I said, Oh my God. And so that propelled me into theater, because I was thinking you could spend so many years on this and it's such a lonely proposition. It's just you and, and yourself at night, whatever, whenever you can write. So I got involved in theater, and that's a much more interactive process. So I was hooked up with ensemble Studio Theatre in New York, which is where a bunch of writers and some drama churches so you have an actors, so the actors read the scripts, use the first act and then everyone comments and then you go back and rework it and bring it back again. So you're workshopping these things, and getting them rolling and and Out of that time period, I wrote them within us, which is a brilliant play everybody. It's a great
Marco Ciappelli05:09
can this can people go watch it now?
Todd gross05:11
Anyway? No, they can't watch it, but they can buy it from, they can go online, and they can find it with that Broadway play publishing. So it's I was writing all of these human human dramas, these kitchen dramas, as they call them. And I was fast finding out that you couldn't get a producer to produce these things. They just, you know, unless you were Tom Stoppard, or somebody famous, you just weren't going to get anywhere. It just was just the nature of the beast. And at that time, it was a big Star Trek and sci fi fan fistiana, and all that stuff. And I said, you know, I was thinking commercially, now, there's no sci fi plays out there. Now, why is that? And you know, one of the obvious reasons is, the amount of money would take to do pyrotechnics, you know, to do special effects. It just didn't, just didn't work. But then I got this aha moment of how this could be portrayed. And so I it's a romantic, then within us is romantic comedy with a sci fi twist. And the initial blurb was troubled lovers, Roger and Susan visit rural Vermont to work on their relationship. possession by aliens was not on their list of problems until they got there. So what happens is, it explores how do you keep a love relationship vital and alive into this in this world, and, and it explored that it was a tour de force for two actors who have to be themselves and then metaphors, metamorphosis into the higher parts of themselves and back again. And so very simply, now, Roger, who's bored with Susan, everything's the same. They've been together for seven years, suddenly, she's herself. But then she's more than what she was. And he finds himself really attracted to her. And ultimately, you know, raises the question, how do you keep a love relationship vital and alive? And you know, you have to allow for growth, you have to keep looking for the alien within each of you, essentially. So, anyway, so it was sounds pretty deep. Well, yeah, it was a lot of fun. You know, it's, and it has its esoteric underpinnings. So that was good. But and then it was optioned twice for the movies. At that time. ran, ran three months off, Broadway was supposed to move to a larger Broadway house, but then the producer disappeared. And it's just the whole drama in and of itself.
Marco Ciappelli07:37
should write a drama about that. Yeah, you
Todd gross07:38
read the drama about that. It's like, it's like we were having problems is it just a simple, practical story, we're having problems with publicity, the publicity guy was not doing his job. So the producer brought in another woman who was had looked like she was going to really do a great job for the show. And after halftime after, when she went for the break, and she was really enjoying it up to that point, she tripped and fell down the stairs and broke her nose. So now here she is. She's lying on the floor in the lobby, there waiting for the ambulance. It was a disaster, but be that as
Marco Ciappelli08:17
well. So fast forward. And now you have a book that it's not actually a play. And in science, I didn't read the book, but I did read the excerpt of it. And it reads is definitely some spirituality in depth into into this. And it's called loi in the forest of the mind. So even in the title, you know, you're gonna go deep into to the mind, so is it these A, the next step of your, your, your path into art from a musician, of an alternative rock band and to writing something on the alternative side of Broadway and? And here?
Todd gross09:03
Yes, it's kind of mirrors my own journey. I think, actually, if I think about it. And I think that as I was writing this, well, I remember being influenced by books like Dune, for example. And maybe not necessarily the first book, but the series of six books. I would be reading something, and my bones would be shaking, they'd be vibrating. And I didn't know what that was what this was a visceral experience, whatever he was writing, it was having an effect on me. I was becoming one with nature, one with all the world, there was something happening, and then a page or two later, it was gone. And then I couldn't remember why it was to begin with because it was not something that could go through the intellectual processes. It was something of being that he was transmitting. So that was very interesting to me. And I said, Oh my God, I want to do that. I want to understand that I want to expand upon that. And I set out with all these what of premises. You know, what if we as humans could live to our real potential? What if the sixth, our sixth sense was as as prevalent and accessible as all of our other senses? You know, what insights would we have? What would we know? Now then? That we don't know now? So. So I wrote the first book, you know, its first draft was basically the size of a large telephone book, if anyone remembers what telephone books were. Yeah, so you know, you could probably hold up a building. And, and when I got to the end of it, I started discovering certain kinds of esoteric literature in the process of like Buddhism, Kabbalah, Sufism, etc, etc, all the isms. The fourth way, even in psychology, cognitive therapeutic techniques were coming on board. And I and I began to realize, Oh, my God, this is what I'm, I'm sort of trying to write this stuff. But I don't know what I'm writing. And so I had to step back for a minute. The there's this interesting idea that, to have understanding to truly understand something you require two things require knowledge, but you also require being, and if you don't have one or the other, you will never have true understanding. So a simple example would be, you could learn to ride a bike on online, I guess, on the internet, you can learn to ride a bike. But now when you're given a real bike in real life, well, what the hell am I doing here? So it would, so it requires an interaction. One is cognitive, but the other one is experience, and then you have, then you have to understand it. So now I'm reading all these things. And beginning and establishing practices for myself, I'm realizing well, I got to start all over again, because now I'm actually getting knowledge, I kind of laid this stuff out organically. But now I need to really, now it needs to be crafted in a way that it can be transmitted. And that just the average person can get it, that their bones can vibrate or on if they'll vibrate, but they'll get a sense of it.
Marco Ciappelli12:03
So I get the idea. So it seems to me that you could have gone two way with this kind of thinking, one, you actually write a book that is a self growth, experience more of a spiritual experience in terms of not having a narrative attached to it, or express all of this through a fiction write work. So Tom, tell me more about this process of creating a story to to actually get to these points and these thoughts that you're feeling.
Todd gross12:42
So that was interesting. I mean, I had to lay out, lay out a possibility. And the easiest way to do that would be to kind of go into to the future a bit. The thing about fantasy is that you kind of leave logical mind behind a little bit Do you have what if premises and then you expand from there. So I started with that. I started with the people who the real eye is so so there's a cataclysmic event the world is destroyed, a small group of people survive and evolve, stripped of all modern technology, they begin to develop their experience of the world. And they're born blind, they don't gain sight to they reach puberty. Consequently, their experience of the world is based on all their other senses. So they're highly aware of many different things when sight comes, it's the least important for them. And so, riffing with that, I mean, that was like, kind of fun, like, the sound of light, what time is it, they can just listen to the sound and know what time it is the fragrance of thought they can lean forward and go, Hey, are, oh, so it's just that kind of awareness. But then the question was, if they have that kind of awareness, what psychologically do they possess maybe that we don't know. Or maybe that's the tip of our fingers or something. So once I got through that, and developed and invent anything, there's nothing new to say. There's just new ways of saying old things. So cobbling together ancient wisdom, and all these different isms, etc. I came up with a way that they could interrelate, they could express themselves, they can evolve. And we as a reader can kind of grow with that, and open our mind to it. So I think that was the thing that was most important to me, actually, this underlying drive, to bring a new narrative to the world and maybe not new narrative, just an old narrative, but make it accessible to people and start a new dialogue and change the world. You know, we have all these narratives exist nowadays. And what's amazing to me is nobody talks about the reason we have narratives, that is to say the human heart, the underlying actually the The the neuroscientists, do they have all of this stuff to show you that basically? Oh, yeah, you think you're conscious? You think you know what you're doing? No, it's your unconscious that's driving the show. And if people say, Well, I don't know when you mean. And so the simplest thing, and I actually use this analogy in the book, one of the characters says to another, so simplest analogy is, okay, so we believe we're conscious, and we know what we're doing. So let me ask you a question. Do you know what your next thought is going to be? And typically, you kind of don't know until it comes. And then you know, but something knows something is creating these internal narratives that are driving you forward. So what happens is in our lives, we look for these internal, the what have whatever we're feeling in a particular way, we look for a narrative to explain it. I mean, that's what the body does to create homeostasis. It's the sort of blind organism trying to figure out what the world is not directly intersecting with the world, or interceding with the world. So you have people that are angry, and so maybe they'll find a politician that expresses anger that aligns with their internal chemistry, and when then they have all the opinions and the narration. But in fact, it's coming from something else, they're, in fact being driven, as opposed to driving. And so we really, you know, we need to open these things up, it's like, would you repair your car with a philosophy book, or religious book or a novel? Would you try to repair you know, you need a manual. So we've kind of needed a narrative and that manual that we can express psychology tries to work with us. Where the Observer Self is the one, that it's the coin of the realm. So when you're young, you just insane, driven by your hormones, you have no Observer Self over time you go, you know what, that didn't really work somebody good for me? Who am I again? And so they try it was a cognitive techniques, try to get you to think about things in a different way, meaning take yourself out from the machinations of your biochemical body. And that's generating all these things, and find another narrative that suits you that's more aligned to who you are separate from this craziness. So swinging back to the book, that that's all that underlying stuff that I was fascinated with. And that, you know, I got to work on again and again, and again. I mean, it's, there's no writers, there's just rewriters. And so, hopefully, I mean, I'm very proud of the work. I mean, I get there, it builds and builds and builds. And it uncovers more and more realms within us. And and hopefully readers will experience that as well. My mother,
Marco Ciappelli17:54
sorry, yeah, no, no, no, go ahead. Good.
Todd gross17:56
I'll wait. So I know that like my mother was who read the third book when she was eight years old books are written, they're just, they just stacked stagger them when they come out. Okay? She was reading the third book, she was, this book is making me so dizzy. And I thought, okay, it's working, because that's her experience. But the truth is, she was, she was resonating in a way that was outside her comfort zone, she's been kicked out of her normal life, and, and locked into spiritual life. And so well,
Marco Ciappelli18:29
I'm fascinated, because I'm a very, you know, philosophical person. So I like to talk about, you know, even my background is sociology and facilities communication, but I, I reflect on how technology, for example, interact with our society. And where I want to go here is that one of the premises that I'm understanding of the book is that they get tripped. There's this, but this race or whatever, you define it, this tribe, group of people, they're stripped by all technology was there for you requisite necessary so that we somehow could discover the sixth sense and get in touch with who we really are? So do you see technology as some kind of a disturbance in our vibe?
Todd gross19:26
Oh, I absolutely. Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm not saying we should go back to being barefoot and diapers live in caves. But and there's nothing to stop any of this. This is just going to continue on and on. But I mean, just a simple way of describing things. And to see how technology is shifting and changing the paradigm of what it is to be human. Really, we're in the process of cybernetic engagement. We're in that we're firmly entrenched in that. And it's been my observation that if From if electricity if the electronic world, the technological world had an intention to cover a overcome, man, they've already won. They've already won. It's got the software, we're addicted to our, our, our devices. In the old days, you had oral tradition, it was a very robust thing. And so here, yeah, so tradition, sure, I'm a caveman, I'm an Indian, whatever, you know, we're hunting, we have primitive technology, we need to I need to learn how to make a bow Well, you know, the bowmasters, this old guy over there. So it forces me and he to interact and have an exchange. And yeah, of course, we get that we all get that you need the older people to tell you what to do, because they have the experience, etc. And then then over time, but well, we don't realize is the emotional bond that is created. It's not just knowledge, it's being it's being with you, we have this interaction, we have this connection to one another, that builds and grows over time in years. So the youth did not necessarily recommend, they did not ignore, or the older people, they saw that they were a reservoir of knowledge in a particular way. So it was a great thing for the old people who gave them a purpose and the thing to do to give back and connect, and the younger people then had a healthy respect for them. And so there was this amazing interaction back and forth. It's emotional exchange, like I say, nowadays, yeah, you go to an older person, kibble younger person will go to an older person for, you know, where's this again? Or what do I do, but mostly they go to their hand and who's laying in their hands is Google. So it's right there for them. And, and they have an emotional reaction. They have an emotional reaction, emotional connection to their, their, their, their technology, their phone, you know, I mean, I have an emotional attachment to my phone. Every time I get a ding It's like I'm Pavlov's dog, and I'm salivate Ooh, who's calling me whatever. So it's madness. It's madness. So how do we remember who we are? Through all that? That's the real question.
Marco Ciappelli22:01
And I guess you when you, when you create a story, in the narrative you use, you kind of go to the extreme right, you go to the hyperboles of what what it is, so that you can make a point, it doesn't necessarily mean that we need to detach yourself completely unplugged electricity and all of that, but it's a metaphor to explain that. You kind of have to balance thing. I guess that's, that's the idea. So tell me who is LOI? The, the main character of of your first book. So this this person,
Todd gross22:38
so Okay, so loi, I kind of wanted to not have something concrete for the mind to grab hold of, you know, this is saying that and actually have all these sayings. In with the mind, there is one truth with spirit, there's a multitude. So, you know, there's no one truth about loi, loi was a state of being it's not a person, it's kind of a state of being, it's an awareness, it's a place. So the first book is entitled loi, the second book, so that people don't get confused. They can know the order. The second book is loi and beyond. And then the third book is oil beyond and back. So, so we have this, it's very simple steps. And maybe people hate that. I don't know. I just, it just, it just seemed natural. This is the progression, this is how it goes. And so so it's not a place, it's a place, it's an idea. It's a way of being, it's whatever you want to make of it.
Marco Ciappelli23:35
Okay, so it's it's what the story rotate around, but we don't, we don't really know what what kind of entity it is. It's okay.
Todd gross23:44
Yeah, I mean, it's our true selves, who we are. Okay, actually
Marco Ciappelli23:48
are. Okay, that's interesting. So I know that one of the notes that you exchanged with me before we we got together and have this conversation was about maybe talking about the writer dilemma, and what what I think is very fascinating. I mean, you're talking with someone that writes a lot. And then, in my mind, I wrote already a lot of books, but actually didn't, and they're very, you know, in the fantasy realm, but then I ended up writing other things. Mostly, you know, as you know, we get the drag away. So, I think every writer has his own dilemma in a way, how would you fit into your routine into your life into your job? Which one is your real job? Like, what is for you? The writer dilemma? What What's your dilemma?
Todd gross24:42
Time probably getting enough time to do it. You know, I mean, that's, that's always the struggle. I mean, writing is a whole organic process. And I mean, the key one of the things I had to learn was not to get so depressed, you know, I mean, so I mean, originally I was thinking It doesn't have this analogy that this will writing is you're banging your head against the wall of your imagination. And depending upon which cracks first, the wall or your head, that's what you're left with for the day. So you're already feeling amazing. And then you got to submit or you got an amazing headache. And then typically what happens is, you left it was amazing. And you come back and you're looking and going, this is garbage. What was I thinking? So there's this whole process, it's very important to kind of figure out a way of balancing the emotions with this stuff. And kind of putting them to the side, I mean, you're still going to have, here's the thing, you're still going to have emotions, your body's going to create emotions, it's going to create thoughts, you're still going to have these things, your opportunity is changing your relationship to them. So rather than I'm depressed, and I'm miserable, I'm expressing it, if I realized I can step beside myself, if I can put myself in a third person, I can say, Todd, you're tons really depressed right now. But you know, tomorrow will be different. And and put yourself in that narrative, then you can like make use of it and move forward. So so the process though, it's, you know, it's a lot of throwing a lot of stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Hemingway wrote all of these interesting. I once heard, it says bookstore and I saw Hemingway's writings about writing and like he had this whole stuff. I said, Yeah, you know, it's $4. I don't have the money right now. I'll leave it but they look grants through it. That's interesting. And I said, you know, I want that book, I went back, it was gone. And I could never figure out what the title was. But he had all these tricks, which were very good. I'll share some with you, for example, he often would fall asleep while he was because you're going in this imaginative, dreamlike state. And before you know it, half an hour has gone by and your heads in this amount of time the desk. So he wrote standing up. And so and I verified that works, you got to get like a tall dresser. So you're standing up. And I mean, it seems silly and stupid. But actually, it works. Another thing he did, another trick he did was when he was in this full blown roll, and he's ready to stop, he's got to leave whatever the story is, he would not leave until he had the next idea. So since the Muse is with him, and on his shoulder, and the ideas are flowing, he would come up with one more idea, which then he would develop the next time he sat down, so you'd have to spend 45 minutes banging his head against that wall and come up with something. So I mean, I mean,
Marco Ciappelli27:30
let me let me ask you one thing that I think it goes to any form of art, and I'm gonna ask you, because you as a musician, and then dealing with with theatre, and I think it applies to painters or sculpture, but where do you position yourself between doing something that pleases you? And that's, for me, a good day, like a big dilemma. And I'm actually writing something that you know, it's commercially valuable. So what I'm saying is do you do in a selfish, fulfilling pleasure as writing or painting or even if you get your instrument that we just still don't know which one is, but you know, in play for yourself, and then eventually, I hope people like it, but screw it, I'm not going to do it for others. Or you're like, you know, I need to make a living out of this. And I want to reach as many people as possible and you find that kind of compromise. What? What's your take on that?
Todd gross28:39
It's a good question. It's always a struggle, you know, it early on, I said, Ah, you know, this is me, this is it. This is that, you know, why they don't, I don't care if they don't like it. I said, you know, I'm writing to be read, I'm not writing to be ignored.
Marco Ciappelli28:54
So I'm not playing for myself. I'm not writing for myself.
Todd gross28:58
Right. And if you're just writing for yourself, it's, you know, masturbatory, you know, I mean, and it's great, feels good, but you know, whatever it is, so, so yeah, so you've really sort of have to really struggle with finding that balance between, you know, what is commercial and what is not. And, you know, you really need at least I needed a lot of feedback from a lot of different people. Early on, I was overriding meaning I had this idea, I wanted you to get the idea. So the premise was, so what I was doing was just sit down, lean back, open your mouth, here, it all comes. Here's the funnel, and I'm shoving it down. So you don't miss a trek. And, and people where this is where these manuscripts are to 250,000 words. And people are like, Oh my god. So then I read it's interesting. I read short stories by Raymond Carver. And he had this one short story I don't remember the name of it, where it was all about this the the subtext and the emotion that was going underneath that was driving the story, and yet there was no one Not one emotional reference. So the way he positioned it, one watched one experience, and it elicited one's own emotional intelligence. And by doing that you became a participant in it. So it wasn't like shut up and take the medicine. It was like, here we go join us on this venture. And that was a great lesson. I mean, I had to rewrite everything. But we learned how to rewrite everything. But yeah, so that's what I said, You got to just keep on back and forth on it until you get where you both please, where your readers pleased and where you're pleased.
Marco Ciappelli30:35
So what when is it you decide? That's good enough? Probably, you know, probably good enough for the people that need to listen, watch read. Versus if I just listened to myself, I'm going to rewrite it a million time and never going to never going to publish it. Where's the line?
Todd gross30:55
Right? Where's the line? I mean, that's another thing. So I went with the consensus view. So well, with my beta readers, or, you know, early readers, I have them read them, because everyone's gonna say something different. And it's more about their own perspective. But numbers are maybe less, less. They're more specific, and people can you know, there's less words and they like on a one to 10, where would you place this? Oh, I placed it on a six. And I'm going, six. Okay, barely 90 nines and 10s. Here. So. So then it was like, and like, so you might get a consensus of you that somewhere in these chapters, there's a six, like, I remember in plays, for example, because it plays there's a lot of right there. When you're developing them, you got writers, you got direct actors are all giving you their view. And typically what would happen, for example, they say, oh, you know, see, Mom was good, but seeing too, you know, when grandma came in, I lost me. And then someone else say, I look see one, it seemed to, you know, I'm probably grandpa, but I had a problem with the uncle, or, you know, seeing to the vets, but you get a consent, something was wrong. Now, it's up to the writer to figure it out. Something is not translate, translating, and everyone is gonna have a different point of view what they think it is. So you have to kind of figure out, Okay, what's not happening here. And I found, this is more about writing again, but so there's a, there's a discipline that breaks. So Vegas breaks us down into that we're forebrain beings, we have four brains that are operating simultaneously, this is a narrative as a filter as a way of looking at things. So there's an intellectual brain, there's an emotional brain is a moving brain, and then there's an intellectual brain. So these are four mounds to be fed. So while you're writing, if someone is emotionally centered, for example, say that's, that's where they see the world more than, let's say, an action adventure moving person, if they're not being fed, they're going to drop out. If you're an action adventure person, and it's all emotion, you're going to drop out. So you have to find the balance in scenes, I say, Okay, what's not being fed here, that people kind of dropping out, something is not being fed. And so it's a good way of looking at things. You know, they say, you have to develop character through action and action through character. And so that's this, this device that you can use to try to figure out what's wrong or changing back.
Marco Ciappelli33:33
That's really cool. I love how you're very, very philosophical and deep into the analysis of writing. I mean, obviously, you've gone through that, and you've thought about it quite a bit. So I'm going to ask you the last question. Before we run out of time, which again, it's going to connect it to the one I asked before like you just pray for yourself or your why for the public. But you already answered to that so let's go with who Who was your audience that you were picture in your mind when you were writing this? Like okay, I know some people can't please everyone, right? What you just said right? So who will be this book? For ideally, everyone, okay, got that. Right. Correct. In your head? Is there a target that you think will will be more or less interested in this in this book?
Todd gross34:35
You know, when I was young, I actually adventure was it that's all I needed. As I got older, I realized, you know what, there's more to life than that and that the ultimate battle is the psychological and that's what is the most interesting and will carry the day. Now. I've had an eight year old read the book and speedy time, and he loved the action adventure stuff. The human emotional stuff. I think he just sped read it and was gone. And then if other people that have read it slowly, that have responded to it, who is the audience? Who's going to sit down and read this book? That's a good question. I mean, I definitely think, you know, it will resonate with older people, because they're used to reading things a little slower than at today's pace where you know, every two pages, it's got to be a climax. But but, you know, it's if you slow down and ease into it, you know, it will move you on different levels. So, yeah, a everybody be somebody who's got a little life under their belt, I think they'll get the most out of it. You can be eight years old, and like, the monster parts, and isn't that so? But yeah, so I think older and someone who's, you know, it, it's been a lot of the, the, the reviews have been getting, you know, makes that makes them think it makes it gives them a different perspective of things. Which is, which is interesting to them. So,
Marco Ciappelli35:53
yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense. And I, I think I'm interested after this conversation about reading the book, I think I could definitely resonate with me. And I agree with you, when you say things like, everybody, I mean, there's got to be a little bit for for everyone. And then you can take what you want. I mean, you can watch the matrix, the original one, let's say, because of the action, right? But there's people that see a lot of philosophy behind all of that. So which one are you willing to walk away? We have no clue of what the reason why the match exist or, or the message beyond June or other sci fi piece of of writing and that become movies or, or you're going to look for the this war fight at the end. Star Wars, for example. So that's, that's interesting. Look, I, I really enjoyed this conversation. I'm glad that we made it happen. And I think a lot of people can think about writing and think about the spirituality that you have expressed here. But I think it will be a good opportunity to actually read the book, and then maybe even rethink about the stuff that we discussed about. So I want to thank you so much for this thought and, and invite everybody to check the notes for the episode where there will be link to your website to the book. And I'm always a big promoter of literature and art in general. And that's it. Thank you so much.
Todd gross37:33
That's it. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to talk. It's great.
Marco Ciappelli37:35
Yeah, absolutely. I enjoyed it. And I hope everybody else enjoyed it either watching the video, or listening to the audiobook of this, so subscribe. Stay tuned, share it, and we'll catch up on the next episode. Thank you very much. Okay.
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