In today's episode, we journey into the captivating world of storytelling, that quintessential human trait that has shaped civilizations, cultures, and individual lives alike.
Guests: Karen Eber, CEO and Chief Storyteller at Eber Leadership Group
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/kareneber/
On Twitter | https://www.twitter.com/kareneber1
On YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/c/KarenEber
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Hosts:
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
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Episode Introduction
Welcome back to another riveting episode of "Audio Signals" hosted by Marco Ciappelli and Sean Martin. In today's episode, we journey into the captivating world of storytelling, that quintessential human trait that has shaped civilizations, cultures, and individual lives alike. And who better to guide us through this intricate world than the talented Karen Eber, author of the compelling book, "The Perfect Story: How to Tell Stories that Inform, Influence, and Inspire".
Marco Ciappelli, intrigued by the intrinsic human need to narrate and to listen to stories, eagerly opens the discussion, hinting at the paradoxical notion of an 'opposite' of storytelling. We're taken on a captivating journey as our guest, Karen Eber, unveils her intriguing career in Fortune 500 companies and the pivotal role storytelling has played in her professional trajectory. Eber's extensive experience includes leading culture and learning development at GE and Deloitte, honing her art of persuasive storytelling.
With an enticing blend of personal anecdotes and scientific evidence, Eber plunges deep into the neuroscientific aspects of storytelling. She unveils the concept of our brains as energy-conserving devices, inherently lazy yet highly effective. She explores how crafting the right kind of narrative can capture our attention, feed our curiosity, and stimulate our senses, effectively making our brains "spend calories."
Meanwhile, Sean Martin grapples with the beginning of the journey, asking how one can initiate the process of crafting the perfect story. Eber responds by highlighting the importance of understanding the science underlying the storytelling process. She discusses the need to incorporate specific elements in a narrative, such as intricate details and unexpected events, which would keep listeners' brains engaged.
The hosts raise concerns about whether over-emphasizing the science behind storytelling could hamper creativity and spontaneity. Eber, however, expertly navigates these apprehensions, asserting that scientific knowledge about storytelling merely provides support and direction. Comparing it to the theory in music, she elucidates how understanding the fundamental principles enriches the story, similar to how music theory brings life to a musical piece.
The trio then embarks on an in-depth exploration of storytelling mediums, neuroscience, and the role of our state of mind. They delve into the concept of shaping narratives to elicit specific emotions, invoking either a sense of pleasure or discomfort. They also analyze the flexibility and adaptability of storytelling strategies across various platforms and for different audiences.
So, dear listeners, prepare to embark on this fascinating exploration of storytelling with us on Audio Signals. If you enjoy our journey, don't forget to share the experience with others and subscribe to join us on many more captivating adventures in the future. And remember, there's no such thing as a "perfect" story. There's only the story that's perfect for you and your audience. Happy listening!
About the Book
The Perfect Story evolves the conversation on storytelling. It explains how to leverage the science of storytelling to create an engaging story. Without relying on complicated models or one-size-fits-all prescriptions, Karen Eber makes storytelling accessible with practical and impactful steps for anyone to tell the perfect story for any occasion.
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Resources
The Perfect Story How to Tell Stories that Inform, Influence, and Inspire (Book): https://www.kareneber.com/book
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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voiceover00:15
Welcome to the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society. Welcome to ITSPmagazine podcast radio. You're about to listen to a new episode of audio signals get ready to take a journey into the unknown, the unknown and everything in between. record that no specific point in time nor space. ITSPmagazine is co founders Marco Ciappelli. And Shawn Martin followed their passion and curiosity as they venture away from the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society to discover new stories worth being told. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.
Sean Martin 01:08
The story without the end market? Or maybe?
Marco Ciappelli01:14
How's the weather? How's the weather show?
Sean Martin 01:19
Listen to another episode?
Marco Ciappelli01:24
Well, it is connected
Sean Martin 01:26
by environment. Man, some people will listen to will include a link to the other compensation.
Marco Ciappelli01:37
Oh, for sure. For sure. I'd say I probably gonna start with that. So but let's start from the beginning. It's always nice and fun to have somebody that we already had the pleasure to have on the show, in this case is Karen Eber. And it was for a specific event, which just passed not too long ago. But we had so much fun because we love stories that we ask you to come back. So Karen, welcome to the show.
Karen Eber02:07
Thank you happy to be back again. It's always fun talking to both of you.
Marco Ciappelli02:13
Well, we're delighted
Sean Martin 02:14
anyway, one of the
Marco Ciappelli02:21
everybody's school in this show, except for me, you know. I need to I you know, I need to come up with better stories. I need to come up with better stories. That's what it is. So
Karen Eber02:33
let's build on a story together. You know, like an improv you want to have you start to sentence the other one picks it up.
Sean Martin 02:40
Perfect. Let's finish your book for you Marco. I can't remember the dark night in Florence or something like that.
Marco Ciappelli02:49
Something like that. I don't know, I'm, I'm actually having chat. GPT finished. Done,
Sean Martin 02:59
put the query in before you go to bed each night. And the chapter comes
Karen Eber03:04
up to you to get ideas for the cover of my book. And it said, it said a fire like firepit and a compass and all these really terrible suggestions. I use none of them. But it was most disappointing. I was hoping it would come up with something really unique. It did not whatsoever.
Marco Ciappelli03:27
Maybe we should play with the mid journey instead of instead of Shut up to maybe a little bit more visual. You try that?
Karen Eber03:37
Yeah, well, I did visual concepts, but I wanted to see when it came up with what it did tell me is what everyone else did like conversation bubble and microphone and all of these things that I didn't want. So it was good for that research, but not for creativity. But you're right, a more visual platform would have been better.
Marco Ciappelli03:56
I'm gonna break a news for you charge up to just tell you what we already know. Know coming up when you
Karen Eber04:04
know for sure. I wanted to see how common the different titles that are in storytelling were out there, but also then see what was uncommon. It did not give me anything uncommon. Shocker. Oh Ma,
Sean Martin 04:19
it's it's a theory that I have that as technology advances. We become less advanced as a society and, and ended up at a low common denominator of blindness. Where everything has been said, is reset, and re re re experienced in a similar way over and over and over. So what you both just said, kind of reinforced my theory here. We'll see. Hopefully we don't end up there. Hopefully something happens in a good way. Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli04:53
I'm thinking this episode is going to be all about the opposite of that maybe and how we We, as human need to keep telling stories, because let's face it, we're good at that. So how about we start from the beginning, which is not it stormy night, again, she prior episode or last time is not once upon a time, but it's about our guests. So for people that haven't listened to the first episode, how about an introduction about who you are? And then the book that we are actually talking about today the perfect story?
Karen Eber05:31
Yeah. So thank you again for having me. I am Karen Eber. And I am the CEO and chief storyteller of this company, Ybor leadership group that builds leaders, teams and culture one story at a time. And I've had this 20 odd year career in Fortune 500 Companies like GE and Deloitte as a head of culture and head of learning, development, and on my own as a consultant and keynote speaker, always working in this place of how do we make work better. And I found so often in my corporate roles, I was continually trying to convince people to make these technology adoptions or take on a different idea or project and very few people could say yes, and so many people could say no. And when I use stories that would slow down the nose, and it would get those people that would possibly say no to influence the decision makers. And so I started to get a lot of questions of how are you doing this? How are you telling stories and have really dug into not just how to tell stories, but the science of storytelling to evolve the conversation, because neuroscience has evolved so much in the past few years that we can understand what's happening in the brain and leverage that and the way we tell our stories to make them the most engaged. And that's what the heart of my book is about. It's called the perfect story, how to tell stories that inform, influence and inspire. It's a little bit of a pun, because there is no such thing as a perfect story laying around, you know, we take these ideas, and we make them perfect. And so it takes you through the science and what to do about it. But then it takes you through how do you then find ideas and tailor them to your audience and build it and avoid manipulating and tell stories with data and navigate the vulnerability of storytelling. And super cool piece of this is that the end of each chapter has this mini vignette from different storytellers because I think that when you hear different people, you get your own ideas. So I talked to the executive producer at the moth and co founder of Sundance Institute and Ted Radio Hour podcast host and a former Creative Director at Pixar, a neuroscientist physician, someone that tells stories write stories for video games. And so at the end of each chapter, you get this little vignette of that person's approach and what they do, which is super fun, too.
Sean Martin 08:00
So I want to start it. I mean, I don't want to, I want to go straight into how, because that's how my brain works. But I want to go further, further upstream and talk about the starting point for this journey for telling or creating, maybe not, and I don't know, if it's creating or telling or both the perfect story. I mean, I can I can look back from from my marketing experience, and realize that there are a lot of, there's a lot of content that exists kind of to our point earlier, that people will use. And oftentimes, it'll be somebody responsible for its, and then it's reviewed by others. So more redline than collaborative. So I, I'm just gonna throw those couple things out there. Tell tell us about me, perhaps even rooted in the book, tell us about how someone or some entity gets started with telling the perfect story.
Karen Eber08:59
You have to understand the science because really, the perfect story is grounded in science. And so I say that carefully. Because there's a lot of people that hear a science and they're like, I do not want to sit through science class. So I don't do it in a sciency way. But when you understand what's happening in the brain, you then can build on that in a story. So as I looked at the different research out there, I put together what I call the five factory settings of the brain. And this is what your brain is going to do when you're listening to information and communications and how you can leverage it when you're telling a story. So first one, for example is your brain is lazy. Because the number one goal of the brain is to get you through the day alive. And it never wants to go bankrupt if calories so your brain uses the most calories out of any organ in your body. And it does so making predictions not just like scanning the environment for Am I in danger, but how do I move my body if I'm Standing up from a chair. And so your brain is constantly predicting all of these different movements and choices and decisions. Because the faster it predicts the faster it can save calories. So number one goal can't go bankrupt with calories, that would be really bad. So it's always looking for these moments where When can it kind of dip out and relax and save some calories, which is what we see all the time in meetings, or in the story that's been told a million times, or the person that puts up the PowerPoint deck with 10 point font in 47 rows, like your brain just pieces out and that. And what that means when you're telling a story is how do you put in specific details or unexpected events? So it forces the brain to spend calories? How are you mindful of the fact of the brain is going to be fighting this and you know, want to go watch cat videos, and make sure that you're putting in things that don't? So I have different things like that, that once you start to understand those things. When you're building a story, you can think, okay, have I made the brain spend calories? Have I put in really specific details and engage the senses? Have I done these things? And so we can go through all five if you're interested. But a great story starts with understanding some of those pieces so that as you're building it, you can go back and think like, Have I done those things?
Marco Ciappelli11:22
So if you think about too much, on the theory, don't you risk to lose your creativity, your kind of instinct, because I feel like we are. And there's a thing to say about science. If you look at it, science is not inventing who we are. It's just discovering who we are. So I can see how science can say, well, this works because of these, which is already working is now making it work. So I like the idea. But if you think about it, don't you feel like then you're constrict into creating something that is perfect air quote, but is not spontaneous.
Karen Eber12:06
Perfect is perfect for your audience. And that time you're telling it, there's not a like, Oh, I've perfected this story. It's amazing. It's what whomever you're telling it to that time, what I'm trying to do is give some support and guardrails so that people can get started, versus those that feel just overwhelmed and don't have any idea where to start or lose people along the way. So it's not heavy handed and the science it's more you know, you can you can play music straight without understanding music theory or having you know what the different markings mean for the loudness or the way you play it, and it's fine. But if you understand the music theory and what you're supposed to do, and what can happen in it, the piece becomes that much more expressive, and people connect with it that much better. And so to me this is that how do you understand the different things so you can play with it to do what feels right for your situation?
Marco Ciappelli13:06
That was such a good answer.
Sean Martin 13:10
That was a perfect answer. No, I think the I love that analogy. And I want to kind of go back to the calorie thing. And I don't know if you're, if it's literally calories, literally telling me okay, I'm really calories. Because yeah, so your brain
Karen Eber13:25
is using 20% of your body's entire calories.
Sean Martin 13:31
Interesting. All right, so. So if you're well nourished, well rested, that could perhaps change the way you perceive a story or know.
Karen Eber13:43
Why do you think rested has a big piece of it, right? So think about those nights that you come home from a day of work. And you just think like, I don't want to think I want to put on whatever my favorite show is, and I want to binge it, because everything else just feels too hard. Mentally I've had a day I've had a week, I'm exhausted. I don't want to think, right, that's your brain saying, Please don't put on the twisted, complicated thriller that I have to really think and focus and guess what's happening, or whatever your version of that is. That's the like, put on the Office for the 47 time because it feels comfortable and familiar. And I just need that right now. And so it's this constant, you know, where are you wanting to go and what do you need? And we're storytelling, you kind of get to sneak in those moments that you catch that attention and make people do it.
Sean Martin 14:35
Yeah. And so now bringing it back to the music if someone's in a certain certain state of mind or frame of mind, they might choose to pick certain genre music or certain style of music to change that or reinforce that state of mind. Is it true and so music clearly is a story in itself, but are there are Are there ways to take quote unquote a story and, and recreate it in different formats, different styles, perhaps same message, same expected or desired outcome at the end, perhaps. But changing the way that it's presented and told different styles, different formats, different mediums,
Karen Eber15:19
no 100%. So this is one of five of the factory settings. Another one is that we are primarily driven to seek pleasure and avoid pain, meaning that our bodies will release the adrenaline, the cortisol to help narrow our focus to get us out of difficult situations, avoid pain prepare us to avoid danger. And we have the cocktail of the oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine that are those feel good things. And so when you don't want to listen to a great piece of music, and you get goosebumps, that's all the pleasure chemicals. And when you are watching a movie and you feel your heart racing, that's the avoid danger, avoid pain. So what that means with a story is you have a choice, are you trying to tell a story that intentionally makes people feel uncomfortable that you're moving through charities do that every time I saw that camera panning over the trembling puppies and kittens while Sarah McLaughlin plays like, that's uncomfortable on purpose. I tell a story in the opening part of my TED Talk about a phone dropping down an elevator shaft, like that's uncomfortable on purpose. Sometimes you want to tell feel good like you can, you can play with different things depending on what you're trying to do for your audience. So that's another one that can help influence the outcome.
Marco Ciappelli16:44
It's really cool. So when you talk about stories, do you talk about every possible story, meaning there is one thread? That is this is the rule that applies to any kind of stories that you want to say meaning? Is it a story for a kid? Is it a story, a bedtime story is a story to tell some scientific knowledge, you know, scientific educators, their storyteller, a politician? Or maybe he's actually a sales pitch during the meeting? For for work? So is there a common thread all these tips that you have in this book applies to all of them, or some are more for creative versus different goal and meaning?
Karen Eber17:35
No, it does apply. The difference is you go through a process to figure out who is your audience and what's the outcome that you want. So for a politician, it's to get votes or to get support or to get donations for a charity, it's to build awareness and to get whatever, for sale. Sometimes, it's the aspiration, the I'll have what she's having for the bedtime story. It's the go to bed, please. And so whatever the goal is, you get clear on that, and that becomes part of your process. So the steps are the same, what you do with them and how you shape your story differs, I don't believe and here are the four types of stories you have to tell because it's just as fake and insincere. You know, not every story is the hero's journey, because we sure learn a lot by not being heroes, we learn from mistakes and awkward moments, you'll often hear the the where are you going story or the why you can't stay here story. I had a CEO that when COVID first happened, his company was in the office every day, and then all of a sudden they're virtual. And you know, the first set of communications are logistics and making sure everyone has information they need and connectivity while they're working virtually. But then he realized he needed to communicate with them. And people were afraid. Nobody knew in 2020, what was happening? How long would the company survive? Would they have jobs? And the where are we going story like it no one knows. You can't use that. What do you need to do is figure out how do I tell a story that forms trust or navigating uncertainty. And so what I've tried to do you is creating an approach that you can use in different settings versus forcing you to back into one format that may or may not be relevant.
Sean Martin 19:21
So I love the use music earlier. So I'm wondering, do stories have marker you often describe this as kind of the Disney model where there's the good person the villain and there's a kind of a set structure of how a story will go regardless of if it's a mermaid or or a genie or a or an ogre? Do stories have components like music to does in terms of like crescendos and and riffs and where things might repeat or choruses or and I don't know all the all the terms now. With the different notes and components that make them use stories have those elements is where and do you? Do you look at it that way? Or does it just happen to have them? And we don't really recognize that as humans?
Karen Eber20:13
No I they do, there's really three big components that stories have. First is there's characters, there are usually people involved that have some reason to be there. Second, and most important is there's conflict, there is tension, there is something to be resolved. It could be between the characters, it could be between the character and some foreign body like a job, it could be between the character and themselves, something that they need to reconcile. But there's something that is happening, there's tension that has to be resolved. And this is the gas for the story. Because as soon as you're not a conflict, you run out of story. And then the third is connection. And that is that with both of these characters in these conflict, we want to be able to see hear feel like we're there in that story, we want to be able to connect with that, and understand why the characters are doing what they're doing, even if we don't agree with them, or like them. And so those are the three major elements. And they're broad, because there's a lot of different things you can do with them and play with them. And this is where there's different dynamics and music that you can use. There's so many different dynamics you can use here. But that's the heart of it, you get those pieces, and then you get to play and see what makes sense.
Marco Ciappelli21:28
So I'm gonna stick with Disney. Can everybody cook? Everybody? Well, truly, exactly. So can everybody be a good storyteller? Or they're some people just don't go there because like, I'm not good at it. And some other just naturally, storytellers. So I don't know how the brain works. And on that side, not just for the people that listen, but for the people that tell the story. I'm wondering if in your research, you find some of these elements. What makes somebody a good storyteller is somebody that is extrovert, somebody that has been reading a lot or somebody with a lot of imagination. I mean, that's my assumption, of course. So can everybody cook.
Karen Eber22:18
Everybody can cook if they want to. It's not limited to extroverts. In fact, storytelling is actually really quite powerful for introverts, because you are often I say you, I'm an introvert, you're often noticing details that others are not. There's research that says introverts speak fewer words, and they're very intentional about what they choose. And so harnessing that and a story makes those words extend and have greater impact. So it's not like you have to be this composite to be a storyteller. What I find is that there are a lot of people that say, I can't tell a story, they see a comedian onstage tell a story. And they think, Oh, my gosh, it's so effortless. Or they watch TED Talks. And they think like, I can't do that. And when they don't realize is very few people do that dynamically without any practice, just like very few people pick up an instrument for the first time and make a sound without any practice. It looks effortless, but it's a skill. And it's a compounding skill that you can, can get better at. And this is where I find when you explain what's happening and how to use it, then people realize like, Oh, I get it. This isn't just a soft skill thing. Like, there's ways to do this, and steps I can take that make me better. What I find whenever people say, Oh, I can't tell stories I don't tell stories is I will find a moment that they've told the story with their friends at dinner. And they realize like, oh, yeah, we're doing this i Yes, of course, I tell stories. But for some reason, when we try to translate that to professional lives, it feels different. And it shouldn't. What you do with your friends isn't different from what you need to do in a professional setting. It's just helping people learn what they're probably already doing, and not recognizing it and give them a process to feel better about it.
Sean Martin 24:09
And how about situations like this, where the three of us are together. And there's a it's lazy, as you pointed out in the beginning that there's a lot in this noggin, for me. But unless I'm an interviewer like us, I'm less comfortable telling a story directly. I'm much more comfortable having a conversation and pulling a story together with others like we're doing here. Do you find that that's this, the setting and the situation perhaps can help change or enhance the story to become more perfect and or enhance the reception of it on the other end?
Karen Eber24:53
I would say that there's a vulnerability with storytelling and increases when we're doing Get outside of our friends and family, right? You will tell the story with your friends and family, with everybody laughing and not thinking about how many times you put in and mourn. Or if you rambled a little bit, you just tell it because you're so focused on the story and sharing whatever happened. But we tend to get a little more uncomfortable and other settings. And that is a part of storytelling. When I work with especially leaders, they'll be very hesitant to use the story because they're afraid like I don't want to share anything personal, which I want to come back to that. But I find an opportunity for them to tell a story. And as soon as they do, and they see the response, they realize, like, Oh, I get it, I want to do it. And so whenever people say I feel uncomfortable, understood, that is a true feeling. We all have it. This is why I find if if you can work a process, then you can have confidence like well, I've done the steps to get here. So now I just have to do it. I do want to come back to the personal though, because I get very often I don't want to tell a personal story. And every story is personal, even if you're telling someone else's story. Because the personal pieces, why are you telling it? What perspective are you bringing to this? And what connections are you making? And I think once you recognize that of, oh, this doesn't have to be about I don't know that the time I fell on stage at graduation. This can be about me sharing a perspective about something that I learned. And then I bring the personal aspect to that. I think that helps lower some of that defensiveness too for people.
Sean Martin 26:40
To see it all the time in like keynote prayer conference presentations, where a lot of times the presenter will come on and say I just on the way here, I just experienced her last night on the flight in I had this situation happen to kind of make that personal connection, perhaps break walls, or did you? Or didn't exactly? Well, look, look at all the all the comedians, right? Are they are they real stories? Perhaps they are?
Karen Eber27:11
I think comedians, yeah. And they find these little moments. And then they what makes comedian so relatable is they're finding this like silly, small moment in life that we notice and don't pay much attention to and then they like put it in an unexpected way. So we find the humor in it. And that's the purest form of storytelling. I love listening to comedians and getting ideas from them all the time on how they structure it, or what they put in that you're like, Oh, I didn't see that coming. Every time they do that. You're like, oh, they made your brain spend some calories because it was ready to like, just glide into lazy mode. And then you hit the speed bump of like, Oh, wait. And so I'm such a fan of that.
Marco Ciappelli27:55
That's why when you watch stand up comedy, you want a big pizza next to your popcorn, so you can replenish?
Karen Eber28:03
Exactly.
Marco Ciappelli28:06
Let me I mean, of course, this is one of those stories that can go forever. But as we start getting to the end a list of this time, and maybe we'll have you back. Let's make it that's a that's making. That's that's a good it's a name of it, my character in the story. Makey. So let's make these more specific in terms of are we talking about telling a story verbally? On a stage in front of people on a coffee shop with a friend? Or are we also talking about a story in terms of writing a story, putting it on paper or on computer, we will also tell him about telling a story with a video telling a story with music telling a story with a photo? So are you focusing on the verbal delivery of the story or these apply to others
Karen Eber29:02
and applies to all what I find is that some people prefer to develop their story in writing, and that helps them think it through. Some people prefer to practice it verbally. And that helps them think it through. So whatever your processing mode is do that. What happens is if you develop it in writing, you have to think about how to tell it verbally. So I develop my stories and Writing helps me think them through, but what it is in writing isn't what the way I tell it live. So every time I'm taking a story to the stage, I have to think about how am I doing this and how do I explain this because it changes it's it's the same story, but it changes. If it's verbally then have to think about how do I connect that in writing and so it can the process is the same, but there is a bit of adjustment that can happen depending on how you're communicating it. And if there's a visual aspect to it, that's another piece to have. When are you introducing that how are you injured? Using that, but the approach. So there's these, these five factory settings of ground you and what's happening in the brain. And then the approach is figure out your audience, pick an idea for the opportunity that you have to tell a story, build the basic structure of your story, and then start to layer on the details and emotions and senses that pull back on these factory sensors. And so it's meant to be simple and step by step so that if something isn't working, you can go back a step and replace it. But you can use it in many different places.
Sean Martin 30:37
So one thing that keeps coming to mind for me, and you have to listen to the other episode for Tell, tell us a story, Jack, for this point. Does a story have an end? And if so, do you need to have the end in mind when you're creating it? And I mean, just look at today's conversation it's based on loosely based on your book, right? That was kind of the driver for this conversation. There's a lot in the book, we're not telling that story word for word here, we're touching on parts of it, and you're telling it in a different way. And so how do you know what to include what to exclude? Is there an end? Do you need an end? Do you have to know the end in time? When you start? I don't know there's a lot in there. But just some of that some thoughts on that collection, I think
Karen Eber31:29
it comes down to what you're telling the story for and what you want as an outcome. So I told the story in the opening of my TED talk about Maria, who drops her phone down the elevator shaft, she's in the office for work, she's going to press the button for the elevator and the phone just falls out of her hand bounces on the floor. And before she can get it just straight down. She has an iWatch on and realizes as it hits the floor, that it's still miraculously working. When she's in that moment of standing in the doors where they're closing on are like what did she do, because it wasn't just her phone, it was her badge. It was her driver's license, it was her keys, like she literally can't go to her car, she can't go upstairs. So she ends up going to the front desk to see Ray the security guard. And he is delighted when he sees her because everybody normally walks in and does like the you know two finger wave at him. But no one talks to him except Maria is this person that knows your last vacation and your favorite food like she's the person that stops and talks to you because she really cares. So she's telling him what happens. And his smile is just going away because he says you know, this is going to be super expensive. And she asked him to get a quote, because what can she do, she either has to take the time to replace all of these things, or she has to pay the 500 whatever dollars, she goes to her office because I happen to be crossing through the lobby, I take her to her office, she sits down. And a few minutes later, Ray calls her desk and says I just check the security certificate in the elevator. It's due for its annual inspection next month. I'm going to call it in today and you can get your phone back and we won't charge you anything because they'll have to go down to the basement to do that. Anyway. Amazing. Same day this happens. I'm reading an article in The New York Times about what Ben injure CEO of Charles Schwab. And he's describing his last exam of his university career straight a business major going into that hall, you know, high fiving, his friends getting ready to get a straight A, the professor tells them turn over the paper that's at your desk, everyone turns it over, and it's blank. And they're all looking around, like what's going on. And the professor says, I've taught you everything there is to know in business except this one thing, which is the most important thing, what is the name of the person that cleans this room. And he didn't know he had seen her he hadn't met her. And he was so embarrassed. And he vowed in that moment to always know the person's name. Her name was Donnie, and he always thought he was going to know Dotties. And so I tell him a story. And then I talk about how great leaders really understand the power in helping people feel seen. I don't tell you the end of either story. I don't tell you what happened to well, they don't tell you what happened to Maria, or what happens to her phone. But I'm able to segue into why I'm telling this story and what can happen. And that's all that's needed. Sometimes you need the end of the story to feel satisfied. Sometimes you don't, and you just want to go to where things are headed. So it really is more what you're telling the story for and what you want from it. The beauty though, in not telling something is that one of the other factory settings is we make assumptions. So you're assuming she got her phone back, you're assuming that he you know did certain things on his path to being the CEO of Charles Schwab. And that's part of what is really cool about storytelling is it's our own assumptions that give our experience of the story because we're comparing them to our own experiences. So part of what you want to do when you're telling a story is think about, like, what assumptions can I lean into? And what assumptions Am I trying to prevent or slow down?
Marco Ciappelli35:10
And what is the message right of the story? Which is my assumption, in the case of the phone there is that somebody actually do care, and he's gonna try to do something about it. Is it gonna succeed? I want to think it does. Somebody may think, no, they crushed the phone. Yeah, sorry.
Karen Eber35:35
If we go back to your earlier question of can you take a story and have it mean something different? Yeah. What if we told that story through daddy's perspective, the person that like through Ray and daddy's perspective of Ray talking about how everyone walks past him, and nobody talks to him, and maybe how happy is to see Maria, or Dottie talking about how she's just like faceless and nameless, nobody pays attention to her, you could still take the same story, but have tell it from a different perspective to get a different outcome to?
Marco Ciappelli36:03
Yeah, well, you're gonna tell it backward. Like, Godzilla didn't destroy Tokyo, but you actually rebuild it. And then he went in the ocean. Like, you just tell it the opposite way. But you weren't very emotional. But you're not you. But I think my new example you're giving are there is a motion there is there is kind of, like a like at some feelings that come. So I can definitely see that into telling biography, personal story, fiction, kids story with a moral at the end, and so everybody lived happily ever after. But if you're making a story for selling a product, unless you're selling happiness and health, when do you really not? Don't need that? Right? I mean, if you're going to sell in marketing, pure marketing, are there moments that you'd maybe occasion that you don't need to get emotional, or you think emotional is always an ingredient emotion?
Karen Eber37:12
I don't qualify what I did as emotional. I mean, I do think it engages to emotion because we hear we feel the shame that Walt feels and you know, some of Maria's frustration, the pain? Yeah, yeah, to me, it's, it's me making the story personal. I wasn't Walther Maria, but I can connect you to what that would feel like through the way I do it. I think that in business setting, even in sales, people are most often not buying the product or the service, they're buying something more, right, you're buying a aspiration of who you want to be, or it's something like that. And so there is often emotion in that it doesn't have to be manipulative emotion, it shouldn't be manipulative emotion. But I do think some of this is connecting people to what is it that you want, or they want and why. And at the root of that is emotion, even if that emotion is apathy, or frustration, or whatever, that, you know, I hear a lot, because I do a lot of work with leaders, I hear a lot of like, oh, we want to leave emotion at the door. Okay, but work isn't devoid of emotion, we've all had frustration, or exhaustion or pick a word that happens in a work setting. And so it's okay to connect people to that, because often, that's how you can move them forward.
Sean Martin 38:38
So I want to go back a little bit to one of the first things I mentioned, which is where my brain goes, which is the what, how something does, what it does. And when we look at businesses, and this may come come into play in personal where people are trying to get other people to do things as well. But certainly when when businesses are trying to create a product or service and present that to the market. My experiences, they immediately jump to the here's what we do, and completely missed the mark on the why and some of the story surrounding the what they do to make it really matter to whomever it should matter to. So that's my perspective, in your experience. What are some of the things you find that organizations and and individuals kind of missed the mark on? Perhaps because of just the way they think or whatever?
Karen Eber39:41
Yeah, to come to mind. And I'm gonna say them because I'm gonna forget so you can remind me one is that we tell the story that we want to tell and not the story that is what the audience wants. And I have an example of that. And the other I've already forgotten. So let's restore Okay, so I have a friend who's a keynote speaker, and her name is Jennifer. And she was getting a new sizzle reel, which is, you know, to three minute preview of this person speaking, so that anyone that is interested in hiring them as a keynote speaker gets an idea of who they are on stage. And these are fairly common, where you see some clips of them on stage. Um, hers, Jennifer started with her hiking upstairs and outside and rowing in a river. So you get to see a little bit of her personality while there's a voiceover about her. And then you get into clips of her onstage and clips of her on media, and the voiceovers explaining what she talks about. And as it comes to that critical point where the person watching it should think like, I want to hire her, she messed it up. Because if you think about like a movie trailer, you get to the end, you want to be thinking, I want to see this movie, I want to buy a ticket. Well, right at that moment, the person watching the movie should be thinking, I can see the value she's going to bring from my audience, I can see how she's going to interact with our people what it's going to be. And instead of staying on those images, she goes back to like these images of playing with our dogs and centering on herself. And it was the wrong thing. Because your audience needs to see themselves and what they wanted, she needed to change it to focus on them and see her interacting with people and more speaking. And it's a subtle thing, that there's a shift where she pulled the audience out of it and the wrong moment, because she centered on telling the story that was about her versus telling the story for the person that wants to buy it. That happens all the time. The other one I did remember is we talk a lot about what's your origin story. I don't feel like that's important. I feel like What's your why now story. Because whatever you started with, five years ago, five minutes ago, things evolved so much that telling why you're doing it now is really important. You know, if Amazon was telling their origin story, they'd be talking about shipping books all over. And that's not who they are anymore. And so I think that people put so much emphasis on that. But why now and what you're trying to do now is more important for people, but done through the lens of the person that is interested in buying it.
Sean Martin 42:18
Oh, that said, let's let's talk about your origin story for the book. No kidding. I do want to talk close with the book, though. Because I mean, we I'm sure we barely scratched the surface. And then of course, you you do so much more beyond the book as well. The book is a great place for folks to start to better understand the science behind storytelling. Can you share with us a little bit about who who this is for what you think they'll get out of it? And most importantly, where they can find it? Yeah, I'm assuming that the brand you just mentioned as well. But
Karen Eber42:59
yeah, so I started writing this because I kept getting these phone calls from people that were trying to prepare a story for a job interview or for a presentation or for a eulogy or toasts, and they just didn't know where to go. And so if you are new to storytelling, or you're struggling with how you apply it in different situations, it's a great foundational piece, because it's not only going to ground you in, why it's going to take you through what to do from constructing your story to actually telling it. If you are already a storyteller, but you don't know what you're doing. It's helpful because it's going to validate a lot of the things that you're doing and help you lean into them more. And if you're a great storyteller, there's some just interesting nuggets around what you're doing, how to do more of them. And then of course, I think the interview vignettes are just so interesting to each one I read. I'm like, this one's my favorite. They're just great insights. So I feel like wherever you are in your journey, you'll get different things from it that will be helpful. It does cover the whole storytelling process, but does also get into storytelling for toasts and eulogies and job interviews. You can find it on my website, which is K ar e n e r.com/books. And there's all the different links to where you buy books there. It's available everywhere that books are it officially publishes October 3 2023, but you can preorder it now.
Marco Ciappelli44:27
Cool story. Cool story, bro. Shawn. Well, as as I expected, the will was fun. i i I asked really? Questions that I really wanted to hear your opinion on. And I think it was a fantastic conversation. I hope people listening got inspired, and maybe get more even excited to tell their next story, whatever that is. Maybe the story itself too. to the cashier at the supermarket, maybe you tell it to your kids, maybe you tell it to your team at work. It doesn't matter. I think the lesson here is we're always telling the story and we may as well tell her knowing that, you know, we know where the notes are and then we just mix them up on the on the keyboard. How about that, Shawn? Please.
Sean Martin 45:22
Ready for me to save your gum? Yes. Whenever I opened with a song, it's not going to happen again.
Marco Ciappelli45:31
Well, maybe one day we will. We will write a song and they'll show but not today. Today is about the perfect story how to tell story that inform, influence and inspire. And Karen, thank you so much for spending 44 minutes with us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Always a joy. Take care everybody. They tune subscribe. Happy bye bye.
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