Join us on a journey of discovery and inspiration as Debbie shares her unique perspective on aging, well-being, and the transformative power of storytelling, life’s challenges, personal growth, the beauty of age, and the joy of living each day as a new adventure....
Guest: Dr. Deborah Heiser, Host of After 40 Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/deborah-heiser-phd
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Hello everyone and welcome back to another exciting episode of Audio Signals Podcast. I'm your host, Marco Ciappelli, and today we have a very special guest joining us. We are diving into the world of storytelling and the power it holds in our lives. Get ready to be inspired as we unlock the stories behind the storytellers.
But before we begin, a quick reminder to hit that subscribe button and turn on notifications, so you never miss an episode. And now, let's introduce our incredible guest for today. She is the founder of The Mentor Project and a renowned expert in aging and psychology. Please welcome the amazing Deborah Heiser!
Deborah has an incredible passion for understanding people and helping others navigate through different stages of life. In our conversation, she shares her own journey of discovery, from her captivating childhood memories to her mission of making each day after 40 meaningful and fulfilling.
We'll explore the importance of storytelling, not just as a means of communication but as a way to connect with others and create a lasting impact. Deborah's insights will inspire you to view aging in a new light and embrace the endless possibilities that lie ahead.
So grab a cup of coffee, sit back, and get ready to embark on this enlightening and transformative journey with Deborah Heiser. Let's dive in!
Introduction: The Power of Storytelling
Deborah Heiser: A Passion for Aging
Lessons from a Grandfather
The Emotional Trajectory of Aging
The Mentored Project and Empowering Older Adults
After 40: A Podcast About Embracing Midlife
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Resources
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For more podcast stories from Audio Signals:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/audio-signals
Watch the video version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllS0aVY7qlwHxX3uiN7tqqsy
Watch the The Right Side of 40 playlist on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllRiYCWyyhoLJqyUE0ERuMfd
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] Hello, everybody. This is Marco Ciappelli on another episode of Audio Signals Podcast. As you probably know by now, I use the radio metaphor. I love old school radio. And, uh, I said lately that I repositioned the antennas for this show. And I'm trying to capture not only The stories, and not only conversation about storytelling, but I want to capture the stories behind the storytellers.
The why they create the stories, and they use the media that they use to share with the world. What is their goal, their vision, their mission. Which means that, pretty much, Everything can help to share a story. A podcast, a book, a movie, even a ballet, a theatrical, a painting, a representation of anything.
So, with that in mind, even when we talk about science [00:01:00] and human science and psychology, I'm getting there. Be patient with me, audience. We need to tell stories so people understand even complex and complicated topics. So we digest them and maybe we remember something about it and maybe help us to change our life, our perspective.
All of this because today I have one of my favorite person in the world, Deborah Heiser, from The Mentor Project, an organization that I'm proud to be part of, but also Someone that is an expert in aging and she writes for important magazines like Psychology Today. She's a professor and a lot of other things that you're going to hear directly from her.
So, Debra, welcome to the show.
Deborah Heiser: Thank you for having me, Marco. And, uh, I'm really excited to be here with you today.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, it's always great. I mean, we, we talk often apart from recording. So now I have to remember that [00:02:00] we are actually recording. So we are here to tell a story. And, and the story is the one about, like I said, it's, it's about what you do, why you do it, and why you are now telling a lot of stories in different formats to your audience about.
What you do and what you try to achieve. So no pressure. Let's start with you. How about that? Let's start with from the beginning. Once upon a time, there was Deborah.
Deborah Heiser: You know, when you told me about storytelling, um, it really brought me back to a child when I was a child. I lived in Iowa. And, um, I was the oldest of all the grandchildren and I had the honor of going with my grandfather when I was like four, maybe five years old, he would pull up in his gigantic Cadillac convertible and I would ride in the front seat of his car every weekend.
He was really [00:03:00] giving my parents a break. Um, but he would take me out and we'd ride around town and we'd do his errands. So we'd go to the post office and we'd do all these different things, but on the ride, he would tell me about people that we would pass in the car. So he'd say, Hey, see Mary over there?
She gave her husband a hard time last night. And, uh, you know, he was so upset. He's off at work now, probably telling everybody about how she gave him a hard time. And then we'd pass somebody else and he'd say, Oh, do you see? You know, Mr. Wells over there, he's sitting on that bench right there because, you know, he is.
Out believing that he can do something new. And he's sitting there thinking about what he's going to do. And then his next step, he would tell it all these elaborate stories. I'm not elaborating the way he did, but it was unbelievable. I thought he knew everybody in the whole world. I was [00:04:00] sure that he was the most popular guy on the planet because he was telling me about everybody.
Turns out he didn't know any of them. But one thing he said to me was never judge anybody by what you see. There's a story with every single person in the world. You don't know if they had a fight with somebody one day. You don't know what they're thinking about. Um, he said, I wanted to give you some information about how I see people.
I see everybody as having a story. And that was incredibly important to me because My grandfather was also at that time the president of the NAACP in Iowa, and he was white, and he was Catholic. And we would go on these trips into, um, places like, Um, Sambo's. That was the name of this pan, pancake house.
Like, please. Um, [00:05:00] but we'd go in there and they wouldn't serve us. They would say, you're not gonna, we're not serving you. Because they didn't like him. They thought that he was somebody who, you know, they just didn't like him. Um, so we would sit down and they wouldn't serve us. They'd give us a hard time.
And he would tell me that person is having a hard time because they have a hard life at home. That person isn't serving us because they don't, they don't get along with other people elsewhere. He gave me a context that I was able to sort of see and feel because when I would go in there, I'd be embarrassed to be with him.
You know, I was a little kid and I was, you know, people weren't proudly looking at the granddaughter, like most people don't say, what a cute granddaughter. They were looking at him saying negative things and me. So learning that there was a story behind people who are nice to you and not nice to you and people you didn't know really made me think I need to go into a profession where I [00:06:00] can.
Work with people and understand people. And that was so valuable to me to learn the importance of storytelling.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, that alone is a great start for our conversation, a great story about stories and, uh, and I think that's, that's relevant because you pretty much picture humanity. I always say we're all made of stories.
And I think about. Prehistoric time when people maybe will only be able to share knowledge because of story, oral storytelling. And then we, we kind of created with technology, uh, the printing and sculpting and, and writing by hands. And I kind of jumped ahead of time, then the printing blog with Gutenberg and then, and then, uh, radio and the internet and everything else that we have nowadays because we have that need.
We have that need, I think, to understand. And I love how, how you need to think that [00:07:00] everybody has not only a story to tell, but, maybe a battle to fight with, with his own. Everybody, I think the people that it looks The happiest, maybe they're the more miserable of all, I don't know.
Sometimes it's better to, to be who you are. So with that in mind, I think, was that the key to make you study psychology and become who you are? And maybe we should tell our audience, what is your daily job as well?
Deborah Heiser: Um, so that was one of the keys, um, that really made me always see people in a different way.
Like, I never thought that somebody was exactly as they are on the outside. I, because that primed me to think there's a whole lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. I didn't, um, decide to become a psychologist. I'm an applied developmental psychologist with a specialty in aging. And was an aging researcher for many years.
And the reason I fell into that was [00:08:00] with my grandmother. And that was the wife of the grandfather who was telling me all of this that I would go out with every week. She was one of my favorite people in the world, and I would go down to visit her all the time in Florida from New York. And, um, you know, I was a young adult and she was the most fun person ever.
She was the type that you could go without any clothes and just wear hers. Cause she wore fashionable, nice clothing. And so as a teenager, that was kind of pretty awesome. Um, so she, one, one visit wasn't herself. I brought her a book. She said, I don't want it. And she was never surly and she was giving me, um, all kinds of, um, negative feedback for anything I'd say.
Uh, she didn't care if I visited, it was really hard. And I said to the person at the assisted living facility, there's something wrong with grandma. And I [00:09:00] didn't understand at all what was going on. And she said, oh, she's depressed. I didn't know what that was and they said, don't worry, we're going to fix her.
And I thought, how are you going to fix her? I came back for my next visit like a month and a half later and grandma was fixed. Grandma was back to herself. She was back to driving us around to go shopping and do all the things that we love to do. Together. And I said, I'm going to do this. I am going to work with older adults and I'm going to fix grandmas.
And that was part of what got me into, uh, psychology. One of the big reasons I went into psychology.
Marco Ciappelli: And, and we all need a big why or maybe a small one. I don't know. Sometimes it may be just one sentence in a book, right? Like a drop of something. But just capture your attention. And sometimes we learn by, by our own experience.
That's a good thing. But I think [00:10:00] even a better thing is to learn vicariously through other. People experience we don't always have to make the mistake. Why don't we why don't we try to other people to avoid it or You know like share our knowledge Um, now i'm going kind of in the mentoring part.
I think we talked about that last time but I, I love the fact that the people that succeed in what they do, they really have, it's not just the money. It's not just choosing a profession that is, I don't know, um, fashionable or, or, or something that people look at you and make you feel important, but it's really doing what you feel inside.
And the fact that you're doing this because your grandparents inspired to do that, it's, it's really cool. So let's talk about now, how do you Apply and share your own story with your audience on, uh, the magazines. I know you've been on TEDx speaking. [00:11:00] So, uh, talking about storytelling. How do you try to tell the story that inspire you to others so that you can fix grandmas and grandpas?
Deborah Heiser: Well, I, I sort of pivoted, um, from fixing grandmas. I went into research and did that for a lot of years, looking at depression and all of, you know, the pathology that we think of when we think of aging. Um, and I went to a conference and somebody said to me, um, so what do we have to look forward to as we grow older?
And I. Had gone to this conference thinking I was going to be so embraced because I was really kind of feeling like I'm pretty cool. I do all this research, you know, I was really patting myself on the back. I'm kind of living in my own bubble thinking I was really awesome. And I got there and I wanted to talk about all this stuff.
I was doing like [00:12:00] depression research, you know, essentially fixing grandmas. And they said, well, what do we have to look forward to? And I said, well, you know, we can fix. You know, depression, we can, you know, try to look at new ways to look at Alzheimer's disease and frailty. And I listed off all this pathology and the person said, that's not what I want to look forward to.
I want you to tell me what I have to look forward to. And I was stumped. And so I left there feeling terrible, you know, like I didn't have an answer for myself or for this other person. I was just kind of. Doing work that I felt was good. Um, but then I had a revelation and aha moment where I said, maybe there's more.
So I put my nose to the ground grindstone and I said, wow, there really is a lot that we have to look forward to. And I gave a TED talk, a TEDx talk where I spoke about how we have the world to look forward to as we grow [00:13:00] older, that we're not just physical beings, but we're emotional beings. And as part of that, um, in midlife, we have a desire to give back.
And there are three ways we can do that. Mentoring, volunteering, and philanthropy. And mentoring is the most powerful in my personal opinion. Um, because we're giving a piece of ourselves to someone else. We're putting ourself out into the world when we're sharing our expertise and our values and knowledge.
So on the TEDx stage, I talked about that, how I, I was someone who was changed. You know, I would go to. cocktail parties and nobody'd want to talk to me because I was the aging specialist. Um, and so I now was looking at life through a new lens and all the stuff that we have to look forward to, like being happier and feeling fulfilled and feeling like we have a legacy that all those boxes that we have checked our whole lives. Matter and [00:14:00] that we matter. And that's where mentoring and the mentor project, which I'm, I founded, which you're a part of really helps. We're able to take our expertise and everything we've ever gathered and put that seed into somebody else and watch that grow and essentially make the world a better place, um, and have made a mark.
Marco Ciappelli: I love it. I love it. You went from expecting for something that is going to break for sure. You're almost like the mechanic that is doing business when the car is broken. Yeah. To be the person that doesn't allow the car to break. In a way, it's preventive instead of, instead of reactive, it's, it's, uh, it's proactive in a way.
So, how do people respond to that? And then we'll go into your technique to share the story and, and, and the knowledge. But so you say you were not the popular one at the party, [00:15:00] like, Oh, who knows what she's going to talk about, but then, but then he changed because kind of like, Oh, I want to know, I want to get.
I want to pick her brain and see what's going on. So how do people react when you paint a different reality that you could create versus the inevitable misery that people expect?
Deborah Heiser: I'd say I'm still not popular at cocktail parties, but I'd say that, um, that the, there's this, almost a sigh of relief in a way that people get, I wouldn't say that they come away feeling optimistic, but there's a sense of relief to know that we're not just, um, that we're not looking forward to a whole lot of negative.
And the way I like to describe that is that when we think of age, And growing older, we think of it in terms of a steep, um, mountain that we climb, you know, from birth, you know, we learned to walk and talk and do all the things, run [00:16:00] fast, et cetera. And then it's a slow, steady decline. That's like the mountain is going down now.
No one likes that. That's where I was. You know, this is a time that, you know, I was explaining, yay, let's talk about all the things that we don't want to have happen to us. Like walkers, frailty, reading glasses, everything else that we don't like. Well, what I try to explain to people is that at the same time that we have that happening, we have our emotional growth, which goes up.
And that never declines and that's really when people say, what do you want to be? What do you, what do you want for your kids? I want them to grow up to be happy. You don't say, I want them to grow up and run fast. You say, you know, what I want when I get older is to feel fulfilled and happy. We're always talking about our emotional trajectory, but we always default to the physical trajectory.
So when I remind them of the emotional one, there's a, like, it's like they go, there's something there for me. So [00:17:00] that's, that's what I'd say.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and do you use Metaphors to share the stories, kind of channeling grandpa, making up stuff just for making the points because I do that all the time. I mean, I, I go by metaphor because I feel like my metaphor, you make something hard to understand, more relatable.
Deborah Heiser: Yeah, I usually, which is kind of funny, I tell people, pretend I'm your stockbroker. And I'm giving you two stock portfolio options. One is a steep, steady incline, uh, with a slow, steady decline. And the other one goes up and never comes down. Which would you choose? And no one chooses the physical option.
They all choose the emotional option. And I say, that's life. That's, you're choosing the emotional trajectory in life. So, that's where I go with that. Um, and people inevitably get it when I put it that way. No one would want to [00:18:00] invest in the physical, um, stock portfolio option.
Marco Ciappelli: Right, so with that, you created the Mentored Project and there's no need to talk about the Mentored Project because there's plenty of podcasts.
. But you started Telling this to individuals, to the people in the mentor project. Um, you talk to your clients, you talk to when you go to do the speaking session. But let's move into the reason why then you decide to say, well, I got the opportunity to write on a big, very well known magazine where I can make.
Instead of making the difference on one person, which is great. Uh, I can make the difference for many people. And then you have your sub stock, you, you write your own article and now you are. And that's the reason one of the reason why you're here is starting a podcast that goes with that. And it's called After 40.
Go figure. [00:19:00] And, uh, so embracing, let's say the technology and all the different media. That we can use to do the storytelling is like was this something that came easy to you because you're already a speaker or is something that you had to force yourself to not have this kind of one on one or a stage in front of a few people but try to really reach a lot because for some people come easy and for some people people not not that easy.
So where are you standing there as a storyteller?
Deborah Heiser: Um, I am. I had to teach start teaching because I'm so afraid of public speaking. And even podcasts and all of that, that I have to, I went out and taught. It was a form of, you know, my own treating myself, uh, in terms of my fear of speaking. Um, to sort of desensitize myself to it.
And I'm still doing it now years [00:20:00] later. Um, so in terms of, was that easy for me? No. Um, it's easier now for me. I feel a lot more comfortable. I can express myself without, um, having a ton of anxiety. But, um, the thing that is a big change is that I've been able to, why it got easier is because as I started to write.
And as I, after I did the TEDx talk, I got so much feedback from people that I'd never met, that I had no idea, listened to a single podcast or read a single thing who said, I needed this. It's like, you're speaking to me because there isn't anything positive out there. That's exactly how I felt. Or that's gives me some hope.
And so now I feel more empowered to tell the stories that I'm able to tell because I know that people get something from it.
Marco Ciappelli: Are there [00:21:00] stories out there that that you like to read or to watch movies or anything that you watch for the pure entertainment just because you want to get out with your head from your work and your thoughts and some other times it you get something out of there is there is always a moral in every story right even the most stupidest one there is Something to learn, and especially if it's a story for kids or, I mean, that's, that's how kids, they, they learn what is right and what is wrong.
So storytelling, again, is important. Is there something that inspired you to say, okay, that, that's the kind of stories that I'd like to hear? May not even have anything to do with your profession. Just curious.
Deborah Heiser: Yeah, I will say there have been a bunch that have I'll start with the little engine that could I don't that's like a little golden book.
Um, that was one of my first I was obsessed with [00:22:00] that when I was young. And I think that that is, you know, one thing then, you know, throughout my life. I loved Siddhartha. I loved all kinds of books. They all have the same sort of theme to them, where it is following a path and getting to a place that you, you know, want to journey to.
That's kind of what I always love are those kinds of stories that I can do this or, you know, the path will, it'll lead to some kind of a path. Those tend to be the stories that I really like. I find those engaging and there's usually some kind of a human story element to them that really. It isn't always expressed on the surface, but you get to see deeper into what the character is.
Marco Ciappelli: And it seems to me, even looking into kind of what you said before, it's not about looking to the, to the fast gain. Again, when you have to choose on the stock investment, but is in Siddhartha took him a while to get to [00:23:00] Nirvana. A lot of time sitting under that tree too. And kind of discovering yourself, who you really are.
I think that that could be another another message. So let's talk about the Um the podcast i'm curious. Um, it's pretty much fresh Just started it took me a while to convince you to have one I'm, like she has story to tell so we should what are you envisioning to do there with that medium? Um to to reach a Bigger result, a larger audience maybe when you combine the other things that you're already doing.
Deborah Heiser: The idea for After 40 is really to talk about everything after 40 that we have to look forward to. Um, so of course I'll take any Questions that a person might have and answer it in that time during the podcast.
Um, so I would definitely welcome anyone to reach [00:24:00] out and ask a question that a burning question that they may have, but usually I will be going to the resources that I have, that I, that I already know the people, the milestones that people are hitting, that they have had questions about and will be.
Talking about those and what we can expect and, um, how we can deal with them and how, how we might be flipping the switch and how we look at some of these concepts and how we can incorporate them into our long term vision for our life.
Marco Ciappelli: Very cool. Are you going to have guests as well, maybe once in a while?
Deborah Heiser: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to be able to bring in some guests, um, from time to time for sure. I mean, I hope he'll be a guest. I'd love to hear about his mom and dad, how you're working on your mom and dad.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, that's funny because I'm working in this day to to be presented as a potential guest on show.
Cause people are like, You know what? Why you just need to be the host? [00:25:00] Just be the guest. And I'm like, yeah, that's easier. I can do that. So yeah, I'll come for sure. Awesome. Any, anyone else that you have in mind? Not, not much the, the name, I guess maybe you haven't anybody committed at this time or you didn't even got to reach out, but the, the kind of people would you want to talk to?
The people that are dealing with something, the everyday people, are you going to bring the academic, are you going to bring, uh, authors, maybe they wrote a book, expert in other field?
Deborah Heiser: Yes. So some of the main things that I'd love to be able to do is to get people to talk about things that everybody has expressed an interest in, like finance.
That seems to be something that people get overwhelmed with and, and thinking about. So I want to have some finance experts on. I want to definitely have some people to talk about, um, uh, you know, academics to talk about some of the current ways that we're looking at, um, some of the ideas in aging, um, [00:26:00] you know, wellness, um, all of that.
And some of the things that we're not. Looking forward to as well. Um, I'd like to get people to talk about their real life situations. You know, we live in a sandwich generation. We also are caring for our parents, whether nearby or at a distance to talk about how people are navigating that what are the missteps?
What are the things that people are looking at with that? I always get questions about downsizing. And one of the biggest ones that I always hear about are people who really are transitioning into retirement or a job change and how that gets navigated. Because that, those are things that, you know, there hasn't been a lot of guidance for people.
So I'd love to be able to get people on to talk about that too.
Marco Ciappelli: Okay, that sounds good. Like everyday situation that you may face. Now, I have a question. So, 40, uh, been there, done [00:27:00] that. Um, I still don't feel like it, right? Okay. So, a lot of people, uh, and I guess me when I was, uh, 40, especially in the early 40, you couldn't tell me that I was I had to think about aging.
Screw that. I was playing beach volley, you know, uh, but, but then, yeah, you hit a point where you become somebody that people say, sir, or how can I help you? And, you know, it's, you're not the kid anymore, even if maybe you look, you don't look your age. So why 40? Because in our society, it doesn't look to me that 40 is someone that should be considered.
Deborah Heiser: You know, because you're looking at the physical aspects of it. All the examples you were giving were physical. But when I got
Marco Ciappelli: right, I fell in the trap myself.
Deborah Heiser: Yeah, you set that [00:28:00] trap and then fell in it. So when we're 40, we have emotional desires that change. This is a time when I bet you, if you looked back in your time machine to 40, you would already become an expert in something.
You were good at something. It's a time when we don't, you know, when you first start out and you're working and you almost need a nap when you come home after work, cause it's so much new information that you're taking in, it's exhausting. By the time you hit 40, you know what you're doing. You also know who you are.
Um, you know what you like to do. Um, you've sort of sloughed off your superficial friends and you've got a tighter knit group of people that you like to be with. They're your people, you know, and so this is a time when we are looking to get ourselves Um a little more more out into the world by putting ourselves out there That may have been a time that you said I want a podcast.
I want to do something bigger That's [00:29:00] the time when people are trying to get themselves outside of their own physical body And out into the world in some way. So at 40, you may have been doing that. If you think back to it, you might've been, um, but that's when we are usually doing that. And that is a very midlife thing to do.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, the whole time you're talking, I'm thinking like, I did brought up two or three examples that they were all physical. I even brought the beach volley thing. Okay. But you're right. You get to the point that I think you give meaning to things that you didn't do. And you say, well, that's cool. Actually, that's better.
At least for me, I feel I would rather get satisfaction from more mental activity than the physical activity, even if I still enjoy it. And I can't judge myself because, [00:30:00] as you say, I don't run my 100 meters as fast as when I was 18 or 20 years old. So that makes a lot of sense. Well, I think that there is a lot to To learn and that when people listen to your podcast and read your article I think it's the time to do a really good um, look in yourself in the mirror and and and then Peel the layers and and look inside It may sound we're weird what I said, but it's not a scary thought.
I didn't mean it that way It's not the scary mirror, but it's really a way to look inside and and I think that it's inevitable I I did listen to your first episode and even if they're short and I like that because you can pack a lot in a short amount of time, , it made me think and I heard every single thing from you already that you say in that but it's still.
I needed that refresh. So I hope that people [00:31:00] would join your 10, 15, maybe longer format, when you have a guest and, uh, and then share with you what, how they reacted to it. And I think that's the challenge to put things out there. And maybe, you know, they're always going to be, somebody's not going to like it.
You're always going to get the thumbs down on YouTube, but. As long as you have the majority, 95 percent up, you're doing something good. So, uh, Debra, I want to leave you the last couple of minutes, maybe to do a call to action. I know maybe you didn't prepare it, but for, for the show and, uh, invite people to listen and to get to connect with you on social media, the mentor projects, it's a.
You're the, well, you're the host now. Close it.
Deborah Heiser: Okay. Well, I, thank you, Marco, for having me on. I really appreciate it. And, um And I always love speaking with you. You're always an amazing person to have a conversation with. Um, my call to [00:32:00] action for this is, Hey, check out After 40. This is an opportunity for, uh, you to maybe get a little nugget here and there that might help you on this journey.
So let's take this journey together. Make sure that if you have a question, go ahead and put it in the comments, send it to me, I will make sure to address it. Um. But this is a really a positive podcast that I'm hoping that you're really going to get excited about, uh, for things to look forward to. Um, feel free to check out my Psychology Today, um, articles as well as my Substack and it's called Deborah, uh, Deborah Heiser.
It is, um, the right side of 40 for Psychology Today and for Substack. And, um, of course always check out the mentor project because, um, most midlifers have a desire to give back and mentoring is one way you can do that. So, um, other than that, um, I look forward to putting out another [00:33:00] podcast very soon for after 40.
Marco Ciappelli: Awesome. So everything that you said about connecting with you and finding your things, that will be in the notes for the podcast. Either you're watching it, will be in the YouTube notes. If you're listening, will be in the podcast note. And, uh, that's it. Subscribe, stay tuned. And Deborah, thank you. Thank you so much for stopping by and sharing your story.
Deborah Heiser: Thank you. And I can't wait to have you on my show.
Marco Ciappelli: All right. Done. Done deal. Take care, everybody.