In this episode of Audio Signals Podcast, Ted Harrington and Ben Schmerler talk to Marco Ciappelli about how podcasting can help you connect with your audience and promote your brand.
Guests:
Ted Harrington, Host of Tech Done Different Podcast
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/securityted/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/SecurityTed
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/ted-harrington
Ben Schmerler, Host of Tech Done Different Podcast
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-schmerler-9530304/
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/ben-schmerler
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Hosts:
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
"In this episode of Audio Signals Podcast, Ted Harrington and Ben Schmerler talk to Marco Ciappelli about how podcasting can help you connect with your audience and promote your brand."
Welcome to the latest episode of the Audio Signals Podcast hosted by Marco Ciappelli. In this series, Marco talks to podcast hosts about podcasting and what it means to them and their personal brands.
In this fourth episode, Marco talks to Ted Harrington and Ben Schmerler, who run the Tech Done Different Podcasts on ITSPmagazine. In this conversation, Ted and Ben talk about the importance of fostering conversations and relationship-building in podcasting, as well as the need to think outside the box and have a broad conversation that is not too focused on a specific topic. They also discuss how podcasting can be used to promote your brand and connect with the community.
Ted and Ben share their experiences with podcasting, including how they started their show in the middle of the pandemic to foster interesting discussions and meet new people. Ted also shares how he presents a problem that he's actively working on to his guests and how he puts his own problem into the conversation to get the foremost expert help in solving it.
Join Marco, Ted, and Ben as they discuss the joys and challenges of podcasting and how starting a podcast show it can help you connect with your audience and promote your brand.
Be sure to share this episode and subscribe to Audio Signals Podcast on your favorite podcast player!
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Resources
Tech Done Different Podcast: https://www.itspmagazine.com/tech-done-different-podcast
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For more podcast stories from Audio Signals:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/audio-signals
Watch the video version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllS0aVY7qlwHxX3uiN7tqqsy
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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voiceover00:15
Welcome to the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society. Welcome to ITSPmagazine podcast radio. You're about to listen to a new episode of audio signals get ready to take a journey into the unknown, the unknown and everything in between. record that no specific point in time nor space. ITSPmagazine is co founders Marco Ciappelli. And Shawn Martin followed their passion and curiosity as they venture away from the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society to discover new stories worth being told. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.
Marco Ciappelli01:02
All right, let's do it. This is all your senior podcast and ITSPmagazine. And I am Marco Ciappelli. You're watching the video because lately we're doing a lot of videos, you can see that we got Ted and then you can listen to the audio. Here they are. Good. And yeah. Good to hear. Yeah, and this is the the less prepare conversation, not that I really prepare for podcasts in general, but at least I read a couple of things. This is just a friendly conversation about podcasting. Either if you're doing it for the InfoSec community, or you're doing it for a book club, or you're doing it for, for goods, whatever you do this is this is what does podcasting means for you? What does podcasting mean for our personal brand, our promotional and how we do good how we connect with the community. And so this is number four of this series. And Ted and Ben are running, tech done different podcasts and ITSPmagazine, a little bit of self promotion here. And we're just gonna have some fun. So Ted, let's start with you a little introduction about yourself. I'm not going to read it, there's too much. So just give me a summary.
Ted Harrington02:22
Sure, yeah. So I am a leader of ethical hackers. And we have a company called ISC that does, helps companies who are looking to find vulnerabilities in their systems and make those systems better. So we do security testing, and consulting, stuff like that. And then we also recently started a software company that helps with vendor risk management. And I wrote a book that sort of catalogs the things that we've seen companies get right and get wrong about how to do that properly. It's called hackable. And for those of you watching, it's placed right over my shoulder, the only book on the bookshelf. And, and I asked Ben, to help me with this podcast. I don't know a few months ago, I can't remember now, Ben. But yeah, we've been doing the show for about two years, I think something like that. And then Ben joined us at ISC. He's been awesome. Like, from day one, I was like, I'm probably gonna have been join me on this show. So, Ben, let's hear about you.
Ben Schmerler03:27
Two kinds. So I'm Ben, I'm the Senior Solutions Consultant at ISA, I work with Ted and our clients, you know, usually I'm on the end of things where clients need to determine what kind of actual services they need, as you might expect and assert in the security field. It's very difficult to actually figure out especially when you're a decision maker, maybe not super technical, where you're actually going with this stuff. So I usually jump in there. I have not written a book. I have a chapter in a book somewhere, I have a background in IT and security, management. And so I came to ISC last year. And I've done a number of media things was funny when I applied here, I saw one of the things they were looking for is they're looking for people with experience in in media. And I took that to mean oh, people who create media and so I had done some TV interviews and radio things and I've written some blogs and other things, usually about compliance and security, etc. So that's what I thought they were looking for. And so it was kind of a nice fit when I came on board to do my job and, and start to create content here at ISC two, including the podcast tacked on different.
Marco Ciappelli04:34
Sounds good. And I love the fact that Ted has been doing this for quite a while and Ben you just did I don't know maybe three episodes on your own and one or two with Ted I think something like that. Yeah, but but but you have to say I'm very impressed because your son really professional and it sounds to me like you've been doing it for a very long time. So that's that's great. Ya know, To the end, I think this is, like I said, is a very open conversation about what podcasting means to you and to your company to your brand. And everybody has his own brand, right and sometimes attached to a company, sometimes it's attached to just yourself as a consultant, as a writer, as an actor, as an athlete, whatever. And I know, Ted, you brought like, even athletes on your show, so I like how very eclectic you are. Let's start with you. So when you decided to have your own show, what what what did you envision? And after many, many episode, is it your perspective changed a little bit about what podcasting means to you? Or? Or is this the same?
Ted Harrington05:49
I'm gonna think about the second part of that question. As I answer the first one. We're gonna be doing two things at once here. So we, we started the show, in the middle of the pandemic. And the reason that we really wanted to do this was to create a way to continue to foster those conversations and relationship building and meeting new people and getting exposed to new ideas. Those things that happen just by nature of like, going to conferences, and like taking clients out to dinner, like you just get exposed to new ways of thinking. And as everyone went into lockdown, I was like, Okay, well, I can't do that anymore. And so what am I going to do just like, be in my own thought bubble, and you know, the few people that maybe I interact with. And so it was a great way to continue to, like, trigger new thoughts. And I love that. And we really, I think maybe I'm one of the few people who created a podcast, but I did not create this with the intent to brand do any branding around myself. I mean, I do a lot of things already that sort of, like, I have built a brand around myself to some extent. But the point of this really wasn't, it's not like the TED Harrington show, you know, it's like, I don't, I didn't, in a way, I'd say to Ben all the time, like, can you just do this without? Like, can I not do this? Because really, what I think the show is for, in terms of like, why we built it, like with the support of the backing of our company, was, we wanted to foster these interesting discussions, we wanted to meet people that were interested in and that we can learn from, and if we can do those things, and we can help an audience think differently, then about an area that is overlapping interests is what we're interested in, then I know good things will happen. And so that's why when you look at the structure of the show, it might be surprising that some security people put together a show that isn't specifically about security at all, like because I wanted to get CTOs on the show. And I was worried it was too focused on security. Would a CTO be like, our PR people don't want me to do that. But can I get a CTO to come on? And tell me about their their leadership principle? Yeah, they definitely can do that. And so the second part of the question, what has changed? I think, Well, the biggest changes is been to come through this. You know, we were, we're sort of playing with the format. And it was like, well, would I suppose it to bend as a question? Like, wouldn't it be cool if and I can't remember what the exact question was. But whatever it was that he said in response to that I was like, yes. And so that's how we have this format now or, like some I do myself, some Ben does himself, and some we do together. And I feel like each of those, I mean, that itself is thinking differently. And that it's like how many podcasts are like that. And I think that's really fascinating. And I was excited to try to change up the format in that way. Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli08:42
And I agree with you, it's, it's really not a good thing that I said, I advise that new host, to don't corner yourself too much into a specific topic. Keep it broad because time change, topic change, and also you change, like your passion change, and why not having a conversation because in the end, I am a big believer that people listen to you because of you, and how you carry the conversation on many different topic. It's not just the topic itself. This said, Ben, how was it to just get in and, you know, on a on a moving train already, and then kind of like what you matching kind of what Ted was already doing. You thought, now I'm going to bring myself
Ben Schmerler09:29
you know, I tend i are there's a lot we share in common, but ultimately, we're very different people and we talk with a different voice. We we act differently. And I can't come into the podcast thinking I have to do things like Ted, because I can't be Ted and can't Ted can't be me. And, you know, my view of content in general is that it's ultimately about the audience and what the audience is coming to hear and if you're looking to reach a certain audience, you need to deliver them content that They feel good about. You said they're coming to one thing I guess I kind of disagree with you on Marco is you said, the people are listening to the podcast for impossible no not allowed on that. Now you said that the people the audience is coming for for you, you know, I really think they're coming to entertain themselves or listen to something or to gain something, maybe they like us. And that's great. I really want people to like us. But if they can like us all we want if they don't feel like the nature of the conversation is interesting, if it's not enlightening them in some way or making their their day better than we kind of failed. So true. My view, my view has always been and it doesn't really matter whether it was a blog or webinar I did, or maybe a live panel or like a TV appearance or something. It's really, what are we trying? What's the message we're trying to deliver? who are who are we trying to deliver it to? And so in that sense, you know, coming into this thing, a little bit blind, it was more about this show, this is who we're talking to? What is the audience gonna gain the most? And that's all I'm going to focus on. I'm not going to worry about the history of things. I don't know what happened 80 episodes ago?
Marco Ciappelli11:05
No, that's, that's a good approach. You gotta you gotta keep
Ted Harrington11:08
rambling. That's what I was figuring it out.
Marco Ciappelli11:13
Neither a backup, that's the story. No, but I think you'll get excited. In different way, when you have somebody I mean, I know, you know, many times, Sean and I, we have this dynamic we've done, I don't even know how many posts because we kind of know what the other person is, is about to say we make fun of each other. But then there are a conversation that I'm happy to have, by myself, because I have my own, you know, my own style. Sean has his own style. So that but there is the final end of doing it in both way. Ted, what I want to go in with you, if you can't tell me is that you had so many different guests, yet speakers, you have athletes, you have people that didn't talk cybersecurity at all different kinds of technology. But the core has always been, what do you do different? How do you think outside of the box? I mean, you can translate the title in many different ways. So I don't know, I learned a lot. Every time I have a conversation, I feel like I come out of it. Understanding something in a different way. So what have you learned and what the been maybe some moments of some conversation that you really, really enjoyed?
Ted Harrington12:32
There's one thing that I definitely do in these interviews is very selfish. And it is I present a problem that I'm actively working on. And that's really fascinating to me, because it's not just theory anymore. And when they when they answer in some way, and I'm like, Well hold on a second, let me I'm able to actually put my own problem into it. I don't always out that that's maybe a problem that I'm dealing with. But a lot of times that I do. And I find that. I mean, that's like maybe a reason to start a podcast period is like, just go get the foremost expert help you solve problems all the time. And I think that's, that's just really, really cool. And I think that people are guests, they maybe at first, don't immediately jump on the idea of like, we even have people when we'll we'll invite them, they'll say, oh, I don't know what I do. That's that different. You know, I don't know how I can think differently or help other people think differently. And Ben's really, really good at helping, like talk that around to people. Not that he's like, persuading them or anything. He's just like, well, hold on, here's why we think you do differently. And we don't even know the person yet. And we're able to list like three or four things we observe about them. Like, oh, you're, you're maybe you're a minority in this type of, you know, ethnic or gender minority, or some other type of minority or we've seen this thing that you do and that was different from what we've seen other people do. Can you just talk to us about that? And and then when people start getting going you just learn new ways to think about everything all the time.
Marco Ciappelli14:04
Yeah, that's a really good point. Ben, how you do that? How are you become a shrink? Because I feel like when you host a show, you're a little bit of it.
Ben Schmerler14:12
And you know, you're not the first person to tell me that that I do that kind of psychology thing. I well, I get a little couch I tell them to lay down relax a little bit. We're gonna talk through some issues feel free this is a safe space. Now. We you know, before every I'll tell you how the sausage is made, so to speak before every podcast we have like a very brief pre call. And it's usually me doing them. And honestly, I don't really know that much about who we're talking to beforehand. You know, we've reached out to them in some way. Maybe sometimes we have a personal relationship with them, but most of the time we don't know anything. And I just tell them I have my little notepad up. Just tell me some stuff about you like your history. How'd you get into this, you know, and I'm there just hear me typing away clicking away for a while and I just look for things that sound cool. You know, things that sound neat to me something that I can elaborate on. And when people say, Well, you know what's so interesting about me, I'm I'm like, there's probably plenty interesting to say about you. I mean, it's kind of my job as a host or coach to make sure that I pull that out of them, you know, their job is they've already done, they've already become an expert. I just need to get people to see what I see in them. So, yeah, just ask them a lot of questions, put everything out there and try to make it a little organic, too. So, you know, I'll do this free calls when you 10 to 15 minutes, tops. Some of it is technical, you know, how do you connect all this other stuff, but a lot of it is, tell me about your background? And I'll say, Well, I really see an interesting theme here. And that theme is about, you know, we had a guest on recently who came from a wildly different educational background and like a knowledge background that you would expect for someone in his position. Well, let's talk about how you got there. And then the theme that episode is really about, you know, don't pigeonhole yourself into something that you think you are, anybody can be anything, you just have to, you know, believe that sort of thing. And that's just kind of how I do it, it's find that one little nugget in the pre call. And then the whole conversation is really going to be about that one thing. And usually, when you find that nugget, people are very interested in talking about it, people do like talking about themselves, it helps, you know, relax the guests a little bit. I think a lot of people are just nervous being on a show period. And so when you're able to talk to them about things that they feel comfortable with, it really makes everything better.
Marco Ciappelli16:31
Absolutely. Tatta. How do you do that? How you make people comfortable? If you do, I don't know, maybe you might?
Ted Harrington16:39
I don't know, maybe I tried to joke around a little bit during four weeks before we hit recording. I don't one of the things I really like about recording with Ben is that Ben Ben is really good at that about, like injecting humor and stuff. And I think our shows are funnier when we're going together. I don't know, just trying to like joke around,
Ben Schmerler16:59
I was gonna say I like one of the challenges. And what I try and do for the show more is try to ask, like, one or two little like weird questions, something that maybe they're not expecting something that I picked up on, that they're not expecting me to ask about. I like framing them in weird ways. Like, I love looping around. I start with one thing and you think I'm going to ask about something, but then tell me, you know, you know, with a recent guest, Andrew, Mike, well, how did what tell me about ethically stealing a baby? For a second, but I mean, I love that kind of disruptive energy, I just think it makes the show a lot more interesting for the guests for the audience, everybody else?
Marco Ciappelli17:40
Well, that's when the audience is probably gonna like what the hell? So I like to think about what would the audience ask now, because some conversation, I can get pretty deep, either in the business or in quantum computing, or stuff that I don't even know. I mean, I talk a lot about space exploration with astronauts. And I'm like, I'm very curious. Like I audience, right? So did you ever stop? Like, let me know, let me rewind this because it may be that somebody in the audience may kind of lose what this is all about. Let's bring it down to more understandable Bible. So do you think with the audience in mind,
Ted Harrington18:24
I definitely am doing that. Yeah. When I see this happen frequently, where I guess we'll, they'll have an assumption about the knowledge base of an audience. So use jargon or even if it's like an A widely understood term, the way that I generally will deal with that is to either myself define it in my response, or ask the say, Oh, you brought up this interesting just so we don't lose anyone. Can you define it? And I think once you do that, once I've found the guests they recalibrate their level of discussion. And it's, it's pretty impressive. There's only been, I mean, we've, I forget what number we're at now, or somewhere like in the high 80s or 90 episodes, there's been three additional episodes that will never air one will two of them were just the guest was oh my god, the guests like went down these rants and you couldn't pull them back from the rants and their sound was awful. And they like were complaining about stuff and I was like, I mean, the episode I'm like, I know we can't air this. This is so bad. And I felt really you know, you feel bad because you you try as hard as you can to get that guest to like deliver something of value to the audience and it's just not gonna happen. The third one that we won't air breaks my heart we won't Eric because it was such an incredible episode we got so in any major league baseball team, there's on the on the baseball side, the highest ranking person is the general manager. That's the person who makes the trades and all that stuff. And anyone who follows any baseball team knows who the general manager is of the team they care about their peer on the business side is, I forget what the title is for that person. But that person makes all the business decisions about things like, Well, how much are we going to charge for tickets? Are we going to do promotions differently? How do we do community events, stuff like that. And we got the guy who's that role for one of the major teams that had just won the World Series A couple years ago. And he comes on and he tells these incredible stories about like, the season was not going well. It was like, it was like a movie, The season was going well. And someone came in
Marco Ciappelli20:42
and said, Laza.
Ted Harrington20:45
It was even more riveting. And I loved it last, but it was like, you know, it comes in and the turning point was like, someone's walk up song they chose and it like, somehow got people fired up. And it got the community involved. And it was like, and then they won the World Series that year, he tells this amazing story from like, in the locker room. And I was so incredible. And then his PR team was like you did what? No, you can't hear that. I have this like, most incredible episode, you can imagine just sitting, no one will hear that except for our team. Man,
Ben Schmerler21:17
I know, later.
Marco Ciappelli21:19
years, you still got that experience. So you're lucky you did that? For a moment, I thought you were gonna tell me the story that happened actually to I'm just gonna shame Shawn here. We were on location, RSA Conference. I mean, he makes jokes about that all the time, when we sit down and with our friend actually KCL is by crowd, and it's on on location recording. So we had this beautiful conversation, we had breakfast while we were talking. And so never hit play. Never hit record. So we did that again, the day after, thankfully, did not. But you know, there is this technical malfunction here and there. So in your case was that it went well, everything went well, except PR set. Didn't ask its permission, though. Well, maybe you can keep it maybe one day, you can get permission to to air that never know,
Ted Harrington22:13
maybe when he leaves and goes to a different team, we'll just be like, Alright, no one's in trouble now.
Marco Ciappelli22:18
Exactly. Ben, you said something before we actually when we were waiting for Ted, and we were chatting around like, you know, let's say, you know, my passion is for radio and in media in general, even before podcasting. And so, you know, podcasting is you're not really reinventing anything, it's still like radio, and you said you had some opinion on on that. So I'm curious to know, what is your, that you are thinking about?
Ben Schmerler22:46
Yeah, so I mean, the one really nice thing, and I was listening to another episode of this podcast audio signals, and I was that sort of made me think about it, which is that when you're talking about things like podcasts, the rails are really removed, you know, you don't really have somebody over your shoulder telling you this is what the message has to be. This is what the show has to be this is how long it has to be the level the types of questions you're making, who you're making them to the length of them, etc, it's, it's my questions, it's my guest, it's all this other stuff. And there's something very liberating about that. And in the sense, and I would say this about user generated content in general, whether it's a podcast or YouTube or a blog, or something like that. And what I really like about it, is it removes a lot of friction between the creator and the audience. You, you're able to say what you think or believe, or your research, or whatever it is, and you're delivering it directly to a person, if they want to reach out to you, they can find you, you know, through LinkedIn, or whatever it is. And then you can have a direct dialogue about that, I find that to be very rewarding, personally, you know, when someone actually, you know, reads a blog or listens to a podcast that you have, and they said, Well, I really liked this one point that you made, or this thing that you mentioned, I find that very fulfilling, it means that some part of somebody's brain, they're thinking about something I said, and it made a difference to them. I just find that great. And I think you can only do that in sort of this user, at least today. And this sort of user generated content space like podcasts where you can just put stuff out there come up with an idea. You don't need to have super incredible technology in place. I mean, you could do this with basic laptops, webcams and inexpensive USB microphones, and you can put something out there and maybe make a real connection with a lot of people.
Marco Ciappelli24:43
It's really true. It's more spontaneous. And I think that's also the reason why there are so many podcasts to start and so few that just lost more than few episodes to that maybe we can talk about that. So it's easy But is it as easy that you can do it without any preparation, any strategy? Any thinking? I mean, where do you draw the line between something that you will actually listen to, there is a touch of commitment, let's say, versus them. This is really, there's really loose,
Ben Schmerler25:22
I can only speak to my mindset with this, which is, and this is this is, this is the thing that makes me feel like I'm doing this professionally. Whether it this works for other people is something totally different. I like that little mix between the organic and the prepared. when I'm, when I'm doing the pre call, it's good, a few little nuggets, make sure the audience feels comfortable with, or the guest feels comfortable with the recording. And then I usually write like three or four basic questions, things I know I want to hit in terms of the interview. And that's really it. Everything else really needs to derive from that. So I need to be reacting to what they say I need to put myself in the position the audience, what might the audience question they guessed on based on what I just said, or what they just said, and sort of go from there. It's, it's, I don't think it's a good idea just to connect and just do a random conversation without at least a little bit of agenda. But if you have too much of an agenda, if you're too rigid, it's going to come off as unnatural. unfriendly, it's going to feel like you're going through a quiz or some kind of exam, or something like that. That's not really the vibe we're looking for. We're looking for people to have a fun conversation and talk about the things they're passionate about. To do that, I think you as a host, doing a little bit of preparation to put your your guests in that comfortable position really goes a long way.
Marco Ciappelli26:50
Ted, maybe you can add to this. And I know you actually, if I'm not wrong, you did a TED Talk. Right. A while back. Yeah, I know that I haven't done it. But I heard is a lot of preparation. People think people just go on stage and, and they talk they actually a lot going on behind it. So I will I would love your perspective. What Ben talked about what we're talking about, about spontaneous and, and also your experience, maybe how you compare this with a I don't know, with a TED talk, and maybe even with the writing of a book. I don't know, maybe I'm throwing a lot of stuff at you. You pick what you want.
Ted Harrington27:31
Yeah, well, no, it's a good contrast, actually, to draw. So I think I think you you approach those three things differently. Probably giving a TED Talk and writing a book are probably more similar to each other than the podcast. So I agree with everything that Ben has said, I think what makes a pod cat, it's funny, I don't really listen to podcasts. So it's hilarious that I have a podcast people are like, Oh, what's your favorite part isn't like, I sometimes listen to the one I was gonna
Marco Ciappelli27:57
ask you that. So I'm glad that you just throw it out.
Ben Schmerler28:00
You can ask me about it. Okay.
Ted Harrington28:01
I'll just out myself as someone who doesn't listen to podcasts. So I'm going purely off instinct right now, when it comes to podcasts. I'm not going off. Well, here's I listened to them those the best performing, I just like, I don't know, what would what would I think a person will want to listen to. And I think what person would want to listen to is a new idea or a new frame on an idea that they're already aware of helps stimulate their thought process. Now, maybe not everybody wants that. But I want to create a show for people who care about that. And that's what what I we set out to create. And so if we do that, then what's the style? Okay, well, the style should be conversational. And that is where I think what Ben's getting at. And I totally agree with, like, when I do a pre call, sometimes the guests will start to say, like, their thoughts on the idea. And I will literally tell them to shut up. And I'm like, I don't want to hear it. I want the natural version of it. I don't want, you know, Sean not hitting record. And then we have to do like the not as good version the next day, because you're like, you change it, whatever. Sorry, I'm actually not sorry, I want to I want to call Shawn and tell him totally threw him under the bus do it. But that's really, really different from giving any talk but TED talk in particular. And here's one of the primary differences is the perception that people have about people who give those very natural talks, because like we've all seen it right when someone gets on a stage, and they're just like, they're just so comfortable. They know exactly what they're talking about. Their body language is relaxed, they hit the exact right points, and you walk away feeling like that person just stood up and just said what they thought. It takes so much effort to look like you didn't prepare. And that is such a common mistake. misperception I hear people say it all the time. They're like, well, I don't want to you know, rehearse this talk too much because I don't want to seem forced. It's like the what makes it look not force is putting in the work. And most people don't get past that. There's that first hump, when it's just, it's brutal. You're like you don't have it memorized. You're you're you're not exactly sure how to say it. Your body language isn't right. You have to get through that. So for me, like my TED talk is, it's about 15 minutes long. And I rehearsed probably, I stopped counting at a certain point, but my estimation is I probably rehearsed at least 100 hours for a 15 minute talk. And it's by the end, it was like, I'm doing this, it was just like, again, and again and again and again, and again of the same thing, but what ends up happening is you now it becomes permanent in your memory. Like I could probably right now, I haven't given that talk in like four or five months, I could probably give 90% of it right now, because it's so burned in my memory. And, and then you're like, you figure out your body language and inflection. And oh, this would be a funnier way to like insert a pause or something. So to give a talk, that feels natural, you need to rehearse the hell out of it. To have a conversation that's natural, like on a podcast, I think you need to actually be having a conversation. And those are two different things.
Marco Ciappelli31:10
Great point. Great point. I was surprised when I heard that myself. When the how much people get train on how you move all your powers? Like oh, my god, yeah, I was one of those thinking, Yeah, I can do it. I'll go there. And just just talk my mind. I don't know. Yeah. And
Ted Harrington31:29
that and those 100 hours that I just mentioned, that was just for this one talk. That doesn't account for the years and years and years and years I've spent on stages building up to this point, right? Like those 15 minutes, that's probably 10s of 1000s of hours that went into that, if you think of it collectively as the level of effort that went into it.
Marco Ciappelli31:49
That's incredible. And still you don't listen to a podcast great. You could at least say I listened to your book.
Ted Harrington31:57
I've listened to a few it's a very short list of podcasts I've listened to
Marco Ciappelli32:03
that's what made you decide that's not it's not worth it to listen to listen to Mark has no good. Ben yours, you say you have some favorite podcast?
Ben Schmerler32:12
Oh, geez. I mean, podcasts are basically how I get through my commutes, showers etc. So my absolute favorite one is a goofy one called Doughboys, which is about chain restaurants, these two comedians go and visit chain restaurants and rank them. And it might not surprise you that it's very silly and not not too critical. Actually critical of the restaurants and ways you might expect they're not exactly handling handing out Michelin Michelin stars. But I really love that one. And I think part of the reason I like it, and I and I can't say I take a lot of lessons from it. But what I will say is that they act natural, and they act like themselves. And they're very open about things and they don't get to in their own heads. The one thing you were talking to Ted about just now, which is like preparing for a talk, I think one thing I would say to anybody who's doing any kind of public speaking thing, whether it's a podcast that's pre recorded, or a live stream, or a webinar or a talk, is also not to get in your own head about something that you're doing at the time. If you say a or you flub a word or something like that, we want to be our worst critics. One of the reasons I listened to a lot of podcasts, you know, what podcasts I don't listen to is Tec nine different when I'm hosting it, because I know if I listened to it, I'm going to beat myself up over things that probably don't matter. That Oh, you know, I should have inflicted this word differently. Or maybe I should have asked, there's always something you could have done different. There's always something you could have done better or whatever. But what makes you good at doing these things over and over and over and over is when you have the confidence to go in to say I prepped, I know what I'm going to talk about, I know how I'm going to hold myself, I'm not going to no one's going to care if I make this one little mistake in the middle of it. That's what humans do. And then go from there
Marco Ciappelli34:00
is a good point. But I have to say maybe because English is not my first language. So it's even funnier when you listen yourself. And maybe you put an S where you shouldn't it's Oh, that was an a plural or there is no word that you can pronounce. But when you listen to yourself, at least a few times, you can really get to maybe fix some really bad mistake, like the fillers and, and all of that. So I think there is a truth in between the two. But I do know about actors that they wouldn't even want to watch their own movies.
Ben Schmerler34:32
I last I like to ask other people what they think, Okay, I like to ask other people for their feedback. And then by the way, you take some of it you take in some of it you don't. You can't you you sort of listen to it. You you take it in you absorb it, and then you figure out what am I going to take away from it? Yeah,
Marco Ciappelli34:49
yeah. Ted I, let's talk a little bit before we wrap up here about the community. You've always been really involved in the community when we were talking And just the other day about the upcoming IoT Village at RSA conference. But also that is you're one of the founder of course of of this. And so there is a lot of podcasts in the community, the cybersecurity InfoSec. community. And I think it's a pretty tight community, it may be a little bit full of drama sometimes. But that's every family has their right. So there is a lot of people that have a podcast. So that's why I'm getting I mean, what is your take on I know, you say you don't listen to my podcast, but you know, how active this community is, maybe on a blog, maybe when we go on location, but, you know, having this thing about, you know, you've gone guest, I'm sure a million time on different podcasts. So the meaning of this candid conversation that people get together and people listen, maybe for the community and for the awarness windows of cybersecurity, for people that are not in the community.
Ted Harrington36:04
So what's the question is,
Marco Ciappelli36:07
is it important? Is it valuable for the community itself and outside of the community? Or you think it's more of a? It's just a matter of thing? We should do things different? I don't know.
Ted Harrington36:21
Yeah, I definitely think all these different podcasts are really valuable to the community. Obviously, this comes with the disclosure that already outed myself that I do not really listen to many podcasts, including many that are in the security community. But I see what these other podcasters are doing. I see the types of conversations they're having, the way they're positioning the shows who the shows are for. And I think these are all really wonderful things. And I can't necessarily say this about many industries, because it's not like I've you know, personally been involved in many industries in my career security, I've been in the security community for last 11. But I can definitely say about this industry, that community is absolutely the right word. Certainly, there's, it's not that everyone likes everyone else. But that's, that's true of any community. And but it does really feel like a group of people who generally share consensus about what it is that we're trying to achieve, and everyone's trying to get better. Everyone's trying to, you know, help other people solve their problems in the community. And that's one of things I love about it. Like, I love going to a place like DEF CON, which I think can be so intimidating to a lot of people because they're like, Whoa, this is it's so technical. I don't know anything. Everyone seems to know everything. And I don't, you go there. And it's like, if you stopped. I mean, I don't know, if you stopped 10 People in the hallways at DEF CON, probably seven of those people would go out of their way to help you. And the eighth would maybe not as excited, but they would still help you and the other two, like whatever, they're jerks, there's jerks in every industry, I think that'd be a pretty high return rate of people who would be very excited to help. And I think that's just a beautiful thing.
Marco Ciappelli38:06
Yeah. And that's why I connected that. And I was blogging about the question, but the fact that, you know, with the village, you you are in touch with the community, in person. But I do feel like the extension of having this conversation going on podcast after. And sometimes they're about diversity and inclusion. And sometimes they're about filling the gap in the industry from a hiring perspective. So I think they're doing a lot. It's not just about talking about listen how good I am at this, what I do, so that
Ben Schmerler38:37
I think there's a really big element of this, too, that's unique, in some ways to like tech and cybersecurity podcasts and other content creation, which is that one of the things I say all the time is that this is an industry of change. Things are evolving constantly. In particular, in particular, in the field of security there are it's hard to find that single expert, I say hard, it's pretty much impossible to find that single expert, somebody who has a knowledge of all aspects of security and can protect you from everything. And when these dialogues happen, whether they're in the form of podcasts, or well written papers, or research or whatever it is, you really just demystifying things for people who really need these messages. A lot of people who are responsible for technology success or security success, or whatever it is, they have limited resources to get it, the information out there can be very, very confusing. Sometimes there's a lot of nuance when there's products and technologies themselves that just pop up and then all of a sudden people are expecting them. I mean, just think about with this chat GPT stuff, how many people are sticking their, their their tongues in the middle of is just to say what they want to say about chat GPT and there's more to be said. And there's probably people who thinks there are experts who probably aren't such experts and people who probably could spend a little bit more time learning about this, but I actually think it's really important that all of these content creators exist because if you don't have the is sort of community that exists to go through this stuff. I don't think we're ever going to really understand how we can better implement these products and technologies as they arise.
Marco Ciappelli40:09
Great point, I think we need to kind of be our own filter, right. So kind of like reinforce the good things, and the ones that are less, and I welcome new voices all the time. That's why I love to talk with other podcasters. And it's not a competition, there is enough audience for everybody, and people listen to multiple podcast. Let's finish with this, which is kind of like what I'm doing with, as a final question for for this conversation is if you have to give one advice to someone that is been thinking to start a podcast, and it's hasn't done a yet. I mean, what, what would it be? I mean, some people think it's too much from technology. Ben, you kind of mentioned that it's like, you don't really need that much. But there is that thin line? So anywhere in the podcasting recording field, what what will be the one advice you would give someone?
Ted Harrington41:08
Well, I would say that being specific on a few things, but specific is the answer. And then I'll elaborate what I mean, but be specific. And by that what I mean to say is, number one, be specific and what your goal is. So like, why do you want to do this, because it takes time it takes effort, you got to reach out to people, people do, you know, there's rejection, there's people flake, like there's parts about it that are not as awesome. And so when you run into those hurdles, that friction, being really clear on why you're doing this will make it so that those aren't a problem. But if you're not clear on why you're doing it, then that'll be annoying that will get in the way. So specific on what is you want to achieve. And then specific on who you're going to serve. So being really clear on who's the audience like people ask us all the time? They're like, Oh, do you have demographic information? Who listens? And we're like, No, we have no way of knowing who's who is actually listening. But we can tell you who are creating it for and if we're doing it, right, those people are coming to us. And that helps guide what are the questions and who are the guests and the topics. And then so the first is being clear on your goals, the second being clear on who you serve. And then the third is being really, really clear, on and specific, I mean, on how you will serve that audience. So having those three things really clearly understood everything else figures itself out, like what kind of mic you're going to use, what platform you're going to use to record it. Like all that stuff, that's you got to figure out, you'll figure it out. Until you have those three things really understood at a specific level, it'll be difficult.
Marco Ciappelli42:40
Very cool. I love those. Ben,
Ben Schmerler42:43
I have three things. So some of it probably aligns with what Ted says. So I think you do have to plan a little bit like if you're going to create any kind of content, you have to have a plan and agenda, it you shouldn't, you can't just hit record and start going you have to have some kind of idea. But But after that, once you have a plan, it doesn't have to be a perfect plan, I would just advise for any kind of content creation to just try. You know, don't, don't necessarily say this is my first episode of my podcast, or the first blog of a blog series, I'm right or whatever. Just put something out there and make it to a standard that you think is good. And put it out there. Do put in put in the work. And then after a little while, don't be afraid to make a change and listen to what the what sort of what the universe presents to you as a result of it. Are people listening? Are they giving you really good feedback on some things and bad feedback on others, you know, so plan something, put something out there, just try to put something out there. We can't let planning you know, paralyze us, it can't be that we plan so much that we never get an episode out. At some point, you got to put something out there and see how it, how people feel about it. And then after a while, you might say okay, now that I'm really established this now that I'm comfortable with, with what this is, what is that little thing that I can do to make it different? We recently added this little thing at the end of the podcast where Ted and I just chit chat about the guest and something we learned from it. And I think it makes the podcast a lot better. I just think me and Ted talking about something and that's having your natural it. First of all, it helps Ted and I record better. I think it helps us develop a more natural chitchat between us, you know, he's in he's we're on the other side of the country from each other all the time we're doing these recordings. So we have to have good chemistry. But then also it allows us to actually show ourselves ourselves off some of the things we're thinking about. But we had to be willing to make that change. And so that's something else I would say you have to think about.
Marco Ciappelli44:38
Next is a fantastic advice and yeah, be yourself. You know, absolutely go but give it a go. Don't don't wear
Ben Schmerler44:46
a cool cat t shirt, whatever that is. It looks pretty cool.
Marco Ciappelli44:49
Exactly.
Ben Schmerler44:51
I kind of want that.
Ted Harrington44:52
It's counting a 40 What's going on? It's a cat
Marco Ciappelli44:55
holding a vodka. I got this in Japan actually saved Was love this little kid? Yeah, we'll get it. We'll find it. Anyway, this was fun. This was a lot of information. I think, again, I don't have a plan, especially for this one. I normally agree with you, Ben. And Tara list is three to five bullet points. And then you can build a conversation around that. When I do this one about conversation about podcasting. I'm really confident because I'm actually having podcast hosts on the show. I'm confident they're gonna talk. I'm confident they have stories. And I'm confident I'm gonna have some good time and actually learning something. So I hope everybody listening right now it's going to appreciate it. Maybe check out check down different we chat and then and hit subscribe on how the single podcast and itsp and on the sector different podcast and on on YouTube. We're not much to look at, but we're gonna have the video there as well. If you just listen to the algorithm, you're gonna see what we look like. They said, Guys, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Ted Harrington46:10
Thanks for having us.
Marco Ciappelli46:11
All right. Take care everybody. See you next time.
voiceover46:14
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