In this episode of Audio Signals, host Marco Ciappelli sits down with Josh Mason, a military veteran turned cybersecurity expert, to discuss the parallels between military mindsets and cybersecurity practices, exploring how continuous learning and storytelling are essential in both domains.
Guests: Josh Mason, Host of Loops and Lifecycles
On ITSPmagazine 👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/joshua-mason
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
In this episode of Audio Signals, host Marco Ciappelli invites Josh Mason, an eclectic polymath with a military background, onto the show. Josh is a fresh addition to the ITSP Magazine lineup, bringing a unique blend of experiences that range from piloting C-130s for the U.S. Air Force to cyber warfare and digital forensics. Together, they peel back the layers of storytelling, exploring why stories and the people behind them matter so much, especially in the realm of cybersecurity and technology.
As the discussion unfolds inside virtual coffee shops and parked cars, Marco and Josh delve into the significance of the mindset inherited from military service—constant briefing and debriefing, meticulous planning, and risk assessment. They argue that this mindset is not just vital for a successful flight mission, but equally important in the world of cybersecurity. It’s about a cycle of continuous learning, about observing, orienting, deciding, and acting—a loop that governs not only the fighter pilot in the sky but also the cybersecurity professional on the ground.
What does it take to make the leap from navigating cargo planes to navigating the complex networks of cyber warfare? How can the principles learned in the high-stakes world of military aviation be applied to the equally crucial arena of cybersecurity? As a storyteller fascinated by the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society, Marco takes us on a thought-provoking journey to discover the story behind the storyteller.
Listen in to uncover how Josh’s diverse background makes him a compelling new voice on ITSP Magazine. With narratives interwoven with life or death decision-making, rigorous training, and a drive for continuous improvement, this episode promises to deliver insights that resonate far beyond the realms of technology and security. Join Marco and Josh as they muse on stories, the storytellers behind them, and why telling these stories matters more now than ever.
Your curiosity is the key, and the conversation has just begun. Subscribe, share, and stay tuned for a dialogue that promises to provoke, challenge, and inspire.
Welcome to the Audio Signals Podcast.
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Resources
Loops and Lifecycles Podcast: https://www.itspmagazine.com/loops-and-lifecycles-podcast
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For more podcast stories from Audio Signals:
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Watch the video version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllS0aVY7qlwHxX3uiN7tqqsy
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:02] Marco Ciappelli: Okay, here we are. This is Marco Ciappelli on the audio signal podcast. I am glad you could make it or you actually you play it because it's not that we're live, although we're going to pretend like it is. I always like to have the idea that somebody's listening to us. I kind of push me to tell. A better story.
Maybe be a better host myself. Today is actually easy. I have Josh Mason with me. He is a podcaster on ITSP Magazine. He just started his new show and I thought why not using the Audio Signals podcast where I tell stories about stories and storytellers that are behind the story, why they do what they do, and use it to introduce our new host.
And I hope you guys enjoy it and, um, I'm going to go ahead for you watching the video. You already see him is in sitting in a car comfortably, I think outside of a coffee shop. And we'll pretend like we're just sitting in a coffee shop and having this conversation. So Josh, uh, glad you made it.
[00:01:11] Josh Mason: Glad to be here.
Yeah. It's surprising how many meetings I've been taking recently from the car.
[00:01:17] Marco Ciappelli: I know you're going through some kind of an adventure and, uh, that makes. This story may be even more interesting. So maybe we'll talk about that too. But, uh, uh, first of all, you know, thank you for, for stopping by literally with your car and, uh, I'm sitting here in the office comfortably, but sharing a coffee, a virtual coffee with you.
So, um, Why don't we just start with those that don't know who you are, uh, who is Josh, and, uh, and then we'll can dive in into what kind of story you, you're telling or you're planning to tell with your podcast.
[00:01:54] Josh Mason: Yeah, excellent. So Josh Mason, uh, I used to be a C 130 pilot in the US Air Force. Uh, I flew for quite a while and then switched over into cyber warfare, helped run the, uh, first special operations communications squadron.
We handled all the IT, local IT for, uh, Hurlburt Field, about 7, 000 endpoints. And, uh, from there, uh, Truth be told, it was a lot of staff meetings and I was a little bored. I had the itch to teach and got the opportunity to teach at the special operations school where I taught introduction to special operations.
I got to interview and introduce a lot of really interesting folks, uh, green berets, navy seals, parajump troopers, so that our Other people who were on the base who were kind of new to special operations. They, you know, didn't go through a special program. They just got assigned to this great place near Dustin, Florida.
And, uh, for them to understand who else was going to be on the base and who else they'd be supporting. And after I got done with my time in the air force, I was looking to see what I could do and got an opportunity to teach at the defense cyber crime centers, cyber training academy, where I. Was a contractor for Jacobs teaching a bunch of investigators how to do digital forensics and how to run a investigation with, you know, computer hardware and software.
And then that grew into actually teaching military folks how to do threat hunting and threat emulation. Started meeting some folks and made a connection with Neil Bridges and Jack Reedy, and they were doing some neat stuff at INE, and I wanted to be part of it, so helped build out the latest version of Pentester Student and the eLearn Security Junior Penetration Tester Certification.
Pulled in Alexi Ahmed to work on that, and that was awesome. We got it going, and it's It's really neat. And then saw an opportunity to, uh, jump into sales, which I was told it was a lot like teaching. Now you've got a solution that you're trying to get people to understand. And, um, it was a lot of fun work for a great company, SimSpace.
Uh, and there's this whole thing where when you're in the military for so long, you're used to doing a bunch of different jobs. And when people get out, We tend to be like, okay, what are we going to do now that we're growing up? And, uh, so I've bounced around a little bit and I've done consulting for about the past, uh, eight months working with Nuvik solutions and now on my own, um, working with pen testers and doing some risk management and doing a lot of, uh, training consulting as well.
So that's what I'm doing with Mason SC currently. There's, uh, some other things on the horizon, some, uh, events coming up, but a lot of that came down to, uh, Kind of what we're doing with the podcast. Um, my background while I was a pilot was, uh, my first job when you become a co pilot, because there's always additional jobs in the Air Force, you're a pilot, but then you also work in an office for the other 36 hours of the week.
And so, uh, my first job was as a safety
[00:05:09] Marco Ciappelli: Because you're not doing enough as a pilot, right? It's like, what are you doing? Exactly. You can't, you can't rest.
[00:05:14] Josh Mason: Uh, yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. Because it's, uh, it's a weird, weird system the Air Force has, where you do your own scheduling, you manage your own training, someone's running all the HR stuff, and that person is another pilot, who, no, didn't go through any real special training, they're just stuck around long enough.
It's a, it's a really weird. really interesting setup the Air Force has. So we all start thinking in that same mindset and start training from it, uh, from the time you're a lieutenant, thinking about, okay, if I was a squadron commander, how would I be doing all this? So it's neat and it's helped me, um, Along the way, I grabbed an MBA and, uh, that helped me understand a lot more about how organizations work, all the other different pieces that go into it.
And, uh, that idea of being a safety officer and what the air force does is every single flight. You're not, okay, that was, that was good. Let's go home. Do it again the next day. No, you, there's a briefing and a debriefing for every single flight, no matter if it's a 30 minute, like we just take off and we go land somewhere and call it a day.
Um, you still do a debrief. How did we prep for it? Was there anything that went weird? Um, is there anything that we, uh, we messed up on that we study for or practice or look out for in the future? Every single flight has a briefing and a debriefing. For fighter pilots, they could do an hour flight and a three hour debrief, and that's a pretty regular thing.
I flew cargo planes, so we do like a five hour flight and a one hour debrief, but it was still an intense debrief. They just, those guys, you know, everything that they're doing is life or death.
[00:06:54] Marco Ciappelli: Now, let me stop you for a second, because I feel like, you know, this is not the Redefining Society or Redefining Cybersecurity podcast, so a lot of the people that may be listening now, they may not be as familiar with cybersecurity as we are, but I think that a lot of people can see the connection between being a former former Pilot a military career, no matter what, and the connection with cyber security, because a lot of people feel like this is a, you know, is a threat management is a cyber risk operation that may be sure for a social engineering happening in a small, medium sized business, but you could also No.
Be in the government or in large organizations. So that connection for many people may be there. And the way that you're talking about the briefing, the briefing doesn't matter how The flight is easy, short, or long. I think it's the mindset that you would hope everybody in cybersecurity or security in general will, will, will have.
So you avoid eventually problem by learning even the little details. So am I correct making this assumption that the way your brain is wired is it's, it's, it's perfect for this career?
[00:08:20] Josh Mason: Yes. Uh, that's exactly how I think about it. Because, um, I got introduced to the OODA loop. The, uh, John Boyd's, uh, observe, orient, decide, and act.
He was a fighter pilot in the Air Force and then a contractor and a writer and speaker, uh, for years. And he wrote a paper, a series of papers, and a series of briefings even as a contractor on, uh, how we can speed up our, our decision cycle. In order to become, and he was a fighter pilot, so in order to become more lethal, and the, in a dogfight, the one with a faster decision making cycle, who goes through the OODA loop faster, is going to succeed.
And you can then, why it's loops and life cycles. I learned that from an early point. This then, brief, fly, debrief, brief, fly, debrief, cycle. And then, you start getting into like, NIST and Agile. And what we do in cyber and in development of doing a thing. Learn from it, do it again better, and that continuous, uh, deployment, continuous, uh, innovation, continuous integration cycle, I was like, this is, this is what I've been doing.
This is, I think, what everyone ends up doing. We just sometimes don't notice it. OODA loop wasn't a, this is what you should do. It was, This is a cycle everyone goes through. You see a thing, you have all the, everything that's inside of you that then orients to what you're saying. We recognize patterns.
We've got heuristics that we've either trained ourselves on, or we've just learned from life. And then we decide what to do, and then we act on it, and it's just what human beings do. Now, if you understand that, you can train yourself to observe differently, you can train yourself to orient differently. In, uh, what you study.
Fighter pilots study specific things so that they can work more quickly in that orient. If I'm at this angle, if I'm coming from above, if I'm coming from below, I'm going to then do something, I'm going to decide. And then act in a specific way, and so they can go through that cycle very quickly. We don't necessarily need to go through the cycle quickly, but we're going to go through that cycle no matter what.
So how can we make it the most valuable? It could be you've you've done this podcast for quite a while. I've been a huge fan for a long time. Um, and the reason I wanted to be part of this is because there's a There's things that we learned when you first did the podcast. I'm sure Uh, there were things about your setup that you weren't in love with there were guests that you weren't in love with there were segments of the podcast that Um, you did and you learned I don't like this or it doesn't hit well, or it's just not a great fit And so you
[00:11:24] Marco Ciappelli: or even part of what I was doing myself Like it was part of me that I wasn't liking but by watching and talking about the briefing Rewatching Editing myself at the beginning.
I was like, whoa, what the hell I'm doing here wrong You can't write and you become better So it makes sense this debriefing thing and you can't just record and then forget about it Which you know when you're a guest you could but you're not learning if you don't listen back to what you
[00:11:57] Josh Mason: Precisely. Precisely. Um, I was building out a course for a client while I was at Nuvik, and they were focused on engineering excellence. One of the things that they wanted to teach the, uh, It was for a consulting company. Uh, we were subcontracting. They wanted all their folks to understand the agile framework and why the why behind this structure.
And they were doing some evolution of their, their whole, um, personnel management at that company. I wanted to put things in place and some, uh, procedures in place. And the training was to teach why it matters. And really this, I also did a talk where I introduced this concept at Hack Space Con and some of the feedback I got back and what I also saw in the feedback in the preparation for that course was this is a great idea.
How do we get it started? How do we begin? And how do we make this part of just what we do? And I had to sit back and think the Air Force that I knew this was a standard thing. This is just what everyone did. But at that point, the Air Force was almost 50 years old. And it's built off of what the army had been doing and like the military decision making cycle is, has been going on for a long time and been written about thousands of times now.
Um, and so it was, okay, how do you get there? How do you get to that point? How do you create a. Environment where we're starting to ask these questions actively, trying to, not just taking it, uh, organically, which might've been the case when you were starting up the, uh, ITSP magazine, you started with a thing, you tried it, it worked or it didn't work and you move from there and that's the organic way.
You can speed that up by being thoughtful, similar to once you understand the OODA loop and the pieces of parts that go into that, you can work on. Making that cycle go a lot faster so we can improve on this. And we have technologies improved. Cybersecurity is improved organizations that last they go through this.
Um, there's many, many business books about how to go. Uh, I think good to great. is a good one. Um, this isn't new, but it is one of those things where you have to put in the effort if you want to do it purposefully and quickly and effectively. So it's seeing all that and processing it. I went, we need to be talking about this.
It doesn't become a normal thing where everyone can... Do it and we can just improve faster unless we start talking about it and socializing the idea. That's what I want to say. I wonder what if Sean and Marco would be interested in this?
[00:14:59] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and we sure were. I mean, I mean, it is really the connection with with society, right?
You know, I mean, People hear me to say this all the time, but, you know, the soft skill now there shouldn't be called soft anymore. It's about organization, it's about sociology, about social engineering, it's about ethics in AI. You know, we never talk about philosophy as much as we've been doing now in the public conversation or newspaper or anything.
So, uh, You know, the fact that you connected all of these, you presented to us. I was like, yeah, that sounds good because maybe we do it. But if we realize we do it, we can improve. And we go back to that, maybe that, that briefing part. So let's talk about this show. So you had this vision, you already have a couple of episode out.
Uh, so, you know, people, you can go loops and life cycle podcast and you can listen to it. And, uh, but, but I want to hear kind of like your, your experience, maybe with. This first two, and I know you've done training. You have done a lot and everything. The reason why I love audio signal is that is based on storytelling is for me, everything is storytelling right now.
We're talking, even when you go outside, you're telling your own story to people that see you, unless you are on your own, but maybe you're telling a story to yourself. So who knows, right? So your first experience and, and, and your vision. For for the loops and life cycle.
[00:16:29] Josh Mason: Yeah So there were some folks that I have been talking to recently That kind of triggered where I wanted to go with this and When I started recording I reached out to them and we're It's like, hey, that conversation that we started at this point, can we continue it and hit record?
And so, uh, Chris Frazier, good friend of mine, he's been, uh, doing quality assurance and, uh, been part of the DevSecOps lifecycle and is one of the folks who gave me a lot of the insights of, okay, how do development teams do this? Because I've, I've read about it. I've heard about it. Um, what have you actually done when you're in that role?
And we then took that and we talked about it on a podcast and then started relating it to, uh, the other pieces. Uh, how can we use the same setup, the same, uh, cycle in real life? Then I talked to Philip Wiley. Uh, he and I have had several conversations and his. work most recently and for a while as a web app pen tester and as a speaker and a teacher and a podcast host.
He's been through a lot of this growth and development and evolution himself and has had a direct role in like the software and security side of you review a thing, you give feedback so that they can improve their product. That's the whole point of that. What about in like, do we have people who are And that's something we didn't quite get into, but it is something that I've, uh, wanted to pull in some folks and tie these, uh, episodes together.
And so I'm lining up some things in the future that are going to be along those lines. Uh, there's started with what I know I've been in security. I've been around development because we've been doing a lot of pen testing, web app, pen testing myself and teams that I've been a part of. And so. From there, let's then get into the more abstract.
Uh, the things that other people might not be thinking about. Some of the things that might be a little more interesting to you, perhaps, in your audience, Marco. Um, my undergrad was, uh, in philosophy. Got a bachelor's of science in philosophy from the Air Force Academy. And so I've got uh, kind of this, I think of things in a lot of different perspectives and A lot of what we're talking about now, this development, continual improvement, isn't new.
Sun Tzu talked about it. Confucius talked about it. There's, uh, things in the Bhagavad Gita, um, about continual development and understanding who you are and where you're going and how your process is going to improve. Uh, Socrates in the Republic, uh, in Plato's Republic, discusses this. Marcus Aurelius and, uh, Some of the other stoics, Seneca, get into, okay, how are we improving?
How are we putting effort into being better selves, being better at what we do? Um, so these ideas aren't, aren't new, but we have some ways, new ways of looking at them, and if we can relate all of that together. We can improve ourselves. We can improve our relation, our health, just our enjoyment of life.
That's part of why I'm on the road.
[00:19:55] Marco Ciappelli: Wow. Yeah. You want to, you want to, you want to tell us a little bit about that?
[00:20:00] Josh Mason: Sure. Uh, my wife is also a pilot and, uh, she got out of the air force. Um, when I switched over into cyber warfare, we started having kids and we had. Plans for, for life. We, we wanted to travel, we wanted to see things, and when the pandemic hit, we realized, okay, now is not a great time to travel.
Um, so we... Bought a, an acre in Maryland. Um, and if you got an acre, you can do a lot of stuff there. So then we ended up getting goats and chickens and ducks and a dog and enjoyed that, uh, while we, while we were there and the kids made a lot of friends. It's actually my, my oldest daughter's ninth house.
She just turned eight. So coming from the air force, we moved a lot. So being in a place for a while like that, um, was nice to meet friends, get into different programs, but then We got the itch. It's like, we've been here for a while, we don't want to move, but we do want to do this travel thing. We had bought the trailer a while ago, and we knew we wanted to do it on a full time basis, so we said let's, let's do it for a few months at least.
Let's put the house up on Airbnb, get someone to manage it, and let's just hit the road. So, our goal was AirVenture, EAA, uh, Experimental Aircraft Associations. AirVenture, it's like a week long air show in Wisconsin, Oshkosh. There's thousands of people who fly out there, and they camp underneath their planes, and then tons of us who drive in and stay in like, campers or tents, um, or buses, and...
Look at our planes, talk about our planes, and it's amazing. So that was, man, a month ago now, but we drove all the way from Maryland out to Wisconsin, stopped at national parks and saw a bunch of places that we had never seen before. Because this is Doug principle, uh, momentum where you remember that we will die, you never know, you never know when the end is going to be for any of us.
And if we say, well, we'll do it when the kids are grown, or we'll do it when we've got more time, or we'll do it whenever, who knows when it's going to happen. So we said, let's do it now. We can, uh, been working remotely. The cybersecurity thing is one of those neat jobs that you can do from anywhere. And if you get good enough signal, you can have these conferences.
You can get on video as long as you can hear each other and see each other. Like. Doesn't really matter where you are. I'm in Toronto right now.
[00:22:35] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and this is a this is a huge lesson I wanted you to to kind of mention this because we were talking before we started recording And and I feel like it's uh, you know talking about, you know, loops, lifecycle, devops.
A lot of people right now may think like, you know This is complicated. I'm not, but this is what you then apply to life. I mean, and, and what you learn in life is then what you apply on your job. So everything is connected in the end. And, uh, you know, and, and I, I love the fact that again, another thing that people need to know is that, uh, not everybody, actually a lot of people I know in, in cybersecurity, they do come from history, major philosophy, you know, many are.
Former military pilots or military personnel, but, uh, you know, there is an entire community that it's very colorful, very variegated. And, uh, and I know that you're very involved with the community as well. And that's one of the thing that was really, you know, meaningful for, for us. To bring you with what we call the family of host because I feel like we're all somehow connected with with the community uh, and uh Touch maybe on on that like, you know, I know that the show it's not just for C level or the the people that are already expert you're doing this to also facilitate people to come in the community I know you're very involved into into that.
So maybe you want to touch on that angle as well And are you going to have some? New entry level or even student coming on the show to talk about.
[00:24:20] Josh Mason: Yes. That's another thing that I have lined up. So I've been very, uh, let me rewind. When I got out of the Air Force, I went to go teach, but truth be told, but.
It's been an adventure for me of what do I want to do when I grow up? I've had a lot of experience, but some people compare it to, uh, being 22 and coming out of school. Like what can this guy do? I've done a mess of things in the air force, but in the enterprise, the civilian world, people go, well, I don't know how that relates.
Um, as I've had to make that translation myself, I've met a lot of people who help me and have met a lot of people who don't know how to make that translation themselves either. The whole pay it forward concept is something that has stuck around with me for a long time. The service and add to the community.
It's why I was in the Air Force. I was an Eagle Scout before that. It's, I, I feel like how we evolve as a people is by helping others to either understand something that they haven't had the chance to or present them something that I imagine that's something you've seen yourself in having these podcasts and why you're doing this is to give back or to help other people understand the world better.
With that... I've been part of a lot of different organizations. I've started a couple of nonprofits to help people get into cybersecurity, get their careers going. And yeah, we're going to be looking at that in a few future episodes. I just actually talked to someone this morning and we scheduled something for a few weeks from now where we're going to be discussing their journey into a role.
And how that's evolved and how they've had to try some things, take some feedback and try some other things. But yeah, it's, uh, these podcasts give us an opportunity to present ideas. And as long as we're entertaining and presenting something useful, people want to tune in and hopefully aids them in whatever endeavor they're doing, whether it be business and life family.
I know. That's been a big part for me. Uh, a lot of the stoic principles, I got into them for family reasons to understand my relationship with my kids and my wife more understanding that like life isn't just what I'm Experiencing my family and my friends like how are we taking advantage of this time that we have together?
How am I best utilizing that? tie it to, uh, how to make friends and influence people. How can I iterate on my interpersonal skills and become a better listener, become more empathetic, help people in what they're trying to achieve and help them meet their goals through sharing information, helping them just work through some things.
So that's, that's what I've been up to. And I've got a, uh, Workshop or a talk at Wild West Hacking Fest in October, where I'm going to talk about how we can do a debriefing cycle and utilize that for developing a team. How can you formalize that if, and then how can you build in that mindset into an organization?
Because you can't just be like, we're going to do this thing. No, people have to be willing to grow, willing to experience some failure. Often that's something we're scared of is failure. Whether it's in academics and work and life, but if you don't fail, you've got nothing to build on, right? You got to try.
See where it goes and then work from there.
[00:28:17] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, absolutely I mean, this is like it's amazing how you can see the depth of this kind of conversation, but also this kind of experience that you had and how all comes together to Contribute in every single aspect of our life, right? I mean I'm i'm stuck right now with this debriefing part in my head.
I'm running like, you know, it's like You know, when I was a kid and I will go back to, uh, from school and I'm, you know, in Italy, I'm sitting with my parents and, and, you know, everything happened at the table in Italy, of course. And they're like, all right, tell us about your day at school. And if you think about it, that's a debriefing.
You, it's a way for you to re rerun what happened. Maybe you realize you did something wrong. Maybe you realize something was awesome, but you didn't catch it at the time. So to be able to look back, that's. You know, I mean, I'm all like in this, in this mindset.
[00:29:15] Josh Mason: Exactly. No, that's, that's it. That's it right there. And, uh, might not even doing that. It might've just been part of what the family does. What is normal society? Uh, but that, what questions do we ask? How do we, uh, get the kid to talk more? How do we get, uh, someone to, to open up more about this? Doing that better.
You're even taking that and evolving it. Sorry, I like the, um,
to like dissect even more in these things. But yeah, it's that. It's that right there.
[00:29:57] Marco Ciappelli: And it's what we're doing as a host too. I mean, I'm thinking again, if you don't have that experience of the debriefing, how can you find the right question at the right time and, and carry the conversation and still be, you know, yourself, you know, it's not like 10 questions.
That when you're finished answering, I'm going to just go in the next one. I, you know, I never have question prep and that's, you know, that's, that's what I love to do, but, but sometimes you, you know, you diverge a little bit, but the still going to come out a great story. Uh, like, you know, this one here, you know, people thought they were going to hear about cyber security.
They're up some, they found something completely different. We're talking about life here and careers and, and your story. And I, you know, the many that you will help to. To share because that that's a that's our job again, you know telling Telling stories and maybe inspire people and if you inspire even one person Out of how many listen to your podcast.
I I feel like it's it was a success
[00:31:03] Josh Mason: Exactly. Thank you marco for having me.
[00:31:07] Marco Ciappelli: It was a pleasure It was a pleasure. I'm excited to have, invite people to listen to your podcast, uh, to get the, the opportunity to meet you in a very candid conversation, you know, done in the car as you travel with your kids, which, you know, I think is a brilliant idea and it's always the right time to do it, you know, there is, or maybe it's never the right time to do it, but.
You just do it. So, you know, brought up to that. All right. So I'm going to let you go and, uh, I'm going to invite everybody to listen up. There will be the link, of course, to anything, any way to connect with Josh on the notes of the podcast. If you are on YouTube, just click on the link there as well.
Subscribe to this show and to Josh show, listen up. It's going to be a great adventure. I know that for. For a fact. So stay tuned for more Josh, be safe on the road and good luck with, uh, with the podcast. I have no doubt it's going to be a big, uh, big success. So take care, everybody!